Old Atlantic Lighthouse

Good post Frog Daddy.

Some think the flying imams are meant to test our security and to make us give it up, and even make it illegal. Some think this or other incidents were a dry run.

Before 9-11, the schools where the hijackers trained were afraid to be called bigots if they turned them in. Some did anyhow, but the FBI had the same problem, especially at the top.

“hopefully we won’t learn the hard way.” that those who call us bigots were against us in the first place.

Those who call our champions bigots were against us in the first place.

Those who call truth tellers bigots were against us in the first place, and this is the truth they don’t want told the most.

quote

I for one am sick of your racist crap, Old Atlantic. Would you suggest deporting everyone who came? Since when? Ellison dates his roots to the 18th century, is that far enough back for you? And Merry Christmas.
Posted by: global citizen

end quote

Virgil Goode brought up the issue of stopping immigration. Why do you conflate stopping immigration with deporting? Because to stop it is to admit it was wrong. That is why you switch from stopping immigration to deporting. In your heart, you know they shouldn’t have been allowed in.

Crying bigot is the last refuge of those who are wrong.

My security code is shoe. We have to take off our shoes because of the shoe bomber, who was, gasp, Muslim. He thought he was acting on the basis of Islam, and Islamic courts world wide tend to support that view. We have to decide if we want to stop things getting worse before America is Lebanon or wait until its Iraq.

How tired of racism will you be when America is in civil war like France already is? The racism that shoots you, bombs you, shoe bombs you, takes you hostage, asks for ransom, doesn’t let you put Cartoons where you want, is the real bigotry. They wrote it down in a book, its called the Koran. It means what it says. Muslims believe in the Koran, not you.
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002219.php

The Koran is written as war propaganda. It was written in 656 AD. It commands Muslims to fight non-Muslims and conquer the world. That’s what it says.

Religious courts in Islamic countries come to similar rulings on stoning and lashing women, etc.

Muslims believe in the Koran as written by God, every word. In every Muslim land, Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. have been forced out or killed. That is going on today in Lebanon and Bethlehem.

Muslims don’t believe in you, they believe in the Koran. Muslims believe in Islam, its not what you believe in.

Liberals have 9-11 guilt. If they stop immigration now, they admit it was wrong after the WTC 93 attacks. They have to admit Pat Buchanan was right in 1992.

Liberals hate their victims, and they can’t admit the truth, which is what stopping immigration is, an admission of truth.

My security code is loss.

bin Laden’s 1998 Fatwa:

begin quote

Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life.”

On that basis, and in compliance with Allah’s order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies — civilians and military — is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it,

end quote

Islam as a unitary entity, religious-political-military attacked the Christian Jewish Western Superpower in 633 AD. The Koran was written in 656 AD from recollections of warriors. It was written down starting in 633 AD because some Muslim holy warriors died in the 633 AD battle of Yamama initiated by Islam as a unitary entity against the Eastern Roman Empire, the Western superpower.

bin Laden’s fatwa is the same thing. His attack on 2001 is the same thing. We responded by sending armies to Afghanistan and then Iraq. It makes no sense to send armies there and not stop their immigration here. We stopped immigration after Pearl Harbor.

What’s the difference? 9-11 was an attack from within by immigrants, so to stop immigration now is an admission that Pat Buchanan was right in 1992 to want to stop immigration.

My security code is profit.

===

Bethlehem 85 percent Christian 1948, 12 percent 2006. There is violence against Christians in Bethlehem today, which is done by Muslims.

Most Muslims want Sharia law in Palestine. University of Jordan did a survey of views in Palestine and other Muslim lands, and most Muslims i all those countries want Sharia law as a source or the sole source of law.

Christians in Morocco are persecuted. Its in every Muslim country.

Americans were taking hostage by North African countries c. 1800, c. 1900, and have been taken hostage or attacked multiple times by other Muslim countries. From 1500 to the French occupation in the 19th century, North Africa took over 1 million Christians slaves in raiding parties on the seas, Europe and North America.

One act of kindness or even many doesn’t make up for an eventual genocide or forcing out. Muslims want Sharia law, they want Islam, that’s why they are Muslims.

Real bigots are liberals who say that Muslims believe what they believe in.

Letting Muslims in the West has corresponded to persecution of Christians and Jews and Hindus in Muslim lands. It makes them think they are winning. Qaddafi said in 50 years Europe will be Muslim. Ergo, Muslims don’t have to change, i.e. become liberals.

Muslims aren’t liberals. You hate Protestants so much, you can’t see that. They take your comments as the sign of weakness.

Also your argument on sign of weakness doesn’t make sense. If they thought like you do, they would stop persecuting Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Jews, etc. in their lands, which they don’t.

My security code is brain.

Cousin X,

Bad acts by others don’t make it desirable to have bad acts inflicted on us. All the bad acts in history by Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. won’t make me want to be a victim of Muslim violence.

==
You are a very sad, ignorant, man.
Use your security code.
Posted by: ENZA

Can you be more specific? How ignorant? Why do you want Muslim immigration? What benefit does it have? Immigration has a substitution effect, all immigation does. This makes it undesirable, period.

My security code is wind, as in Wind and the Lion, when Americans were held hostage in Morocco, c. 1900.

sami, I agree with many of your comments, but the issue is continued Muslim immigration. I believe all immigration should stop, with no amnesties or guest worker.

It isn’t beating on immigrants to stop future immigration. This is one of the logical fallacies that permeates the pro immigration arguments.

Sustained immigration causes genetic survival ratios to asymptote to zero. Search on “Unpleasant Immigration Arithmetic”. Thus its irrational. This is true for each annual cohort of immigrants, not just those here.

“And all the bad acts in history by Muslims won’t make me want to be a victim of Fundamentalist / Right Wing violence.”

The only fundamentlist violence going on is that being done by Muslims in the US, France, UK, Lebanon, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, etc.

Realist, I agree with your remarks up to your final sentence. See link on this post for comments on Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

BTW Complete 9-11 Timeline needs money and is exposing Bush links to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. They have a matching grant but are behind in meeting it.

My security code is judge.

Posted in Bay Buchanan, Pat Buchanan, Paul Begala, Virgil Goode | 4 Comments »

Paul Begala should apologize to Bay Buchanan, Pat and Virgil Goode

December 21, 2006

It isn’t right for people on TV to call Goode a bigot or ask others to while Danish Cartoonists are in hiding and CNN won’t put the Danish Cartoons on its webpage.

Only those who have spoken out for Rushdie, the Danish Cartoonists, and all the rest in hiding have the moral right to call Goode a bigot.

Its wrong to put people on TV on the spot to denounce Goode’s comments when the same TV people or their station is afraid of Muslim death threats.

This happened to Bay Buchanan on CNN with Begala and Wolf Blitzer.

Begala was in the Clinton administration. Clinton let the 19 hijackers in.

The schools where they trained were in some cases afraid to turn in the hijackers for fear of being called bigot.

After 9-11, Bush and Mineta praised Islam and said no profiling. But secretly they knew they had been given warnings. They used the bigot charge to keep people from asking questions.

Begala and the Clinton team let in the 19 hijackers. They called Pat Buchanan a bigot in 1996 for wanting to stop the immigration.

Its wrong for Begala to be part of the Clinton team that let in the hijackers, let them train at schools, ignored the warnings, called Pat Buchanan names, and then pressure his sister on CNN to denounce Goode.

Begala should apologize for calling Pat Buchanan a bigot in 1996 when Pat wanted to stop immigration. Begala did the same thing as Mineta and Bush after 9-11, to cover up his own guilt for calling Pat Buchanan a bigot in 1996, he threatened his sister Bay with the same thing if she wanted to stop immigration.

How many times must we be attacked and have the people like Begala responsible for letting them in get away with calling Pat Buchanan a bigot for wanting to stop them?

Why is Begala a moral person for letting the 19 hijackers in, but Pat Buchanan is a bigot for warning to keep them out?

This is the same cover up scheme that Mineta, Bush, C. Rice, Peter Jennings, Clinton, Begala, etc. said after 9-11 and on the day of 9-11. The smoke was rising up as they started calling people who wanted to stop immigration bigots.

The 9-11 families were the targets of the MSM on 9-11. The President in his Religion of Peace speech was threatening to call the 9-11 families bigots if they asked for Muslim immigration to stop.

This is so 1938 its unbelievable.

Begala should apologize to the 9-11 families for failing them like Richard Clarke did. Begala shouldn’t call anyone a bigot while he has this guilt. Begala should apologize to Pat Buchanan for Buchanan being called a bigot in 1996. The Clinton team did that deliberately in 1996. They traded almost 3000 lives on 9-11 to win re-election in 1996. They need to apologize to the 9-11 families for that election and for calling Pat Buchanan a bigot in 1996.

CNN should apologize to Bay Buchanan, the 9-11 families, the Danish Cartoonists and the American people for how they have covered this issue from 1993 to present.

==The Paul Begala incident on the Wolf Blitzer show
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0612/21/sitroom.01.html

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, well, first, just call a spade a spade. Virgil Goode is a bigot and he’s an idiot. Let’s hope he clears that up when he has his press conference, because lots of people misspeak.

…

BLITZER: Let me read once again for you, Bay, and for our viewers precisely what is in this letter that he wrote: “If American citizens don’t wake up and adopt the Virgil Goode position on immigration, there will likely be many more Muslims elected to office and demanding the use of the Koran.”

(You have to see the video to see how she was put on the spot throughout this question and the subsequent discussion.)

BAY BUCHANAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I can understand what he is trying to say. I think that his choice of words were outrageous. I think it’s a clear mistake that he made, to suggest that we should be worried that Keith Ellison is a — happens to be a Muslim, and is elected now to the Congress, wants to use a Koran.

I don’t see any problem with any of the above, none whatsoever. I think what he — what he is trying to say, which I think is a legitimate point, is that, as a nation, we should get control of our immigration laws, and make certain we have a national debate as to what is our best interests as to who is coming and who we are inviting into this country.

And that is a legitimate national debate, not what we’re doing today. But I think this is something not quite that. And I think this is a mistake.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0612/21/sitroom.01.html

When she says “This is a mistake” she means what is being done to her. This is the main clue from the transcript of just how much she felt set up and put in a position by Begala.

And, yes, Virginia, it was a mistake, for Begala to do this, possibly planned out in advance, knowing Bay Buchanan would feel vulnerable because Pat Buchanan was attacked the same way as Virgil Goode was just then by Paul Begala during the 1996 Clinton Dole campaign. It was a mistake for Wolf Blitzer to let it happen. This isn’t the first time Begala and Blitzer have been on TV or been through one of these.

Then they talked about Sandy Berger. Was Begala trying to so upset Bay Buchanan that Begala could skate the truth about the new information about the Berger incident with Bay Buchanan so shaken up she couldn’t nail him on it?

Is there still a cover up going on by the Clinton administration about anything that happened between Jan 20, 1993 and Jan 20,2001?

No TV network, no newspaper, no blog page has a moral right to call Goode or Pat Buchanan bigots unless it has defended the Danish Cartoonists, and all the others and apologize to the 9-11 families for letting PC let the 19 hijackers in legally after the WTC 1993 attack and bin Laden’s declaration of war.

They must say to the families that they failed them when they called Pat Buchanan a bigot in 1996 and on the day of 9-11 by continuing that.

President Bush must apologize for the religion of peace speech when he knew he had the warnings on August 6, 2001 and was covering that up. He and all the others in the Clinton and Bush administration must apologize for letting PC prevent stopping the 9-11 attacks.

They must also apologize to the Danish Cartoonists and everyone in hiding since their earlier failures.

They must apologize, all of them, to future victims. Whenever they issue a warning, they should issue an apology for letting PC prevent saving the lives of Americans on 9-11.

Paul Begala should apologize to Bay Buchanan, Pat and Virgil Goode

==How to answer Begala, Blitzer, etc.

If you are on TV and you are asked to denounce someone or some idea, ask to see the 12 Danish Cartoons on their web page first and to show them right then on the TV before you answer.

Show all the Danish Cartoons before asking me that question and put them all on your web page, and then I will answer.

They will say, what’s that got to do with this?

Everything.

==Was Paul Begala lying in wait for Bay Buchanan?

Did Paul Begala intentionally do what he did to Bay Buchanan?

He is an experienced campaign operative and strategist. He coaches people on what to do in these situations. Wasn’t this deliberate?

Wasn’t Paul Begala intentionally covering up for the Clinton administration 9-11 guilt?

Wasn’t he intentionally doing what Peter Jennings, Norman Mineta, and George Bush did on and after 9-11?

Isn’t it all the same? Isn’t it all true?

At last sir, have you no decency?

Does the Clinton team have no decency?

Didn’t the Clinton team choose to cover up and lie about sex, FBI files, travelgate, IMF loans to Russia, Wall Street trading Russian government bonds, Paula Jones IRS audit, Judicial Watch IRS audit, IRS audits of the other Clinton women, the 1990’s stock market bubble, Saudi Arabia funding terrorism, Pakistan’s nuclear program, Chinese influence, and all the rest instead of stopping immigration after the WTC 1993 attack, the August 1998 embassy bombings, the USS Cole attack in 2000, bin Laden’s declaration of war in 1998 and all the other classified information they have never disclosed?

The MSM, Bush team, Democrats, Republicans, Congress, Blair, Labour Party, Conservative Party, Lib Dems, profs, think tanks, and all the rest?

==Who should receive an apology:

Virgil Goode
9-11 Families
American People
Bay Buchanan
Pat Buchanan
Bob Dole
Danish Cartoonists
Rushdie
All others in hiding
All those who had to engage in ritual denunciations from fear of PC or Muslim terrorists.
Future victims of sleeper cells already in the US after the 1993 WTC attack.
Future victims of sleeper cells already in the US after the 1998 embassy bombings attack.
Future victims of sleeper cells already in the US after the 1998 bin Laden declaration of war.
Future victims of sleeper cells already in the US after the August 6, 2001 PDB.
Future victims of sleeper cells already in the US after the 2001 WTC and Pentagon attack.
Future victims of sleeper cells already in the US after each and every event on the Complete 9-11 Timeline started by Paul Thompson and championed by the 9-11 Families. (And they need money, please donate this Dec 2006 they have a 10,000 matching grant.)
Future victims of sleeper cells to enter after today, whatever day today is.

Future Operating Procedures

No network or newspaper like CNN should allow anyone who asks for stopping Muslim immigration to be called a bigot or ask someone to denounce them until they apologize to all the above and post the Danish Cartoons, and show them on TV and publish them in their print edition, whatever is applicable.

To avoid the overposting police, I have added to the above

Virgil Goode Right: Stop Muslim Immigration

I shall just say whenever one is put on the spot to ritually denounce Goode or anyone else for PC violations, ask the TV station to

(1) First show all 12 Danish Cartoons

(2) Post them on their webpage

And they should show all 12 before you answer.

Bring them with you and ask them to show them on the TV and then post them on their webpage.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at December 21, 2006 08:08 PM

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002215.php

==What to say to Paul Begala

Ask him to apologize to the 9-11 Famlies for failing them by letting the 19 hijackers immigrate after 9-11.

Ask Begala to apologize to the 9-11 Families for calling Pat Buchanan, or others associated with the Democratic Party or Clinton admin, a bigot when he wanted to stop or limit immigration after the WTC 1993 attacks during the 1996 Clinton Dole Presidential Campaign.

Ask Begala to apologize to Pat Buchanan and his sister for these incidents.

Ask him to apologize to all those in hiding now because of events that happened after the WTC 1993 on the Clinton watch.

Ask him to apologize for all the scandals of the Clinton years that kept them from dealing with the WTC 1993 attacks.

Ask him to apologize for not responding to the WTC 1993 attacks with at least as much action as after the WTC and Pentagon 2001 attacks.

Ask him to apologize for the role of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan being covered up by both the Clinton and Bush teams.

Ask him to apologize for the 1995 Jamie Gorelick Wall Memo.

Ask him to apologize for the joint cover up by Democrats and Republicans, Clinton and Bush of all the things that happened from Jan 20, 1989 to present.

Ask him to apologize for all of the issues raised above.

Ask him if he has, at last, no decency, and when he and the Clinton team and the Democratic Party lost it?

Ask for a moment of silence for past and future victims of what they are afraid to name.

And another moment for all its victims around the world today, all those in prison, being tortured, denied legal rights, women denied equality, people in hiding in any country, and all the rest, all of it from something they can’t name and are afraid to name lest they too have to go in hiding or receive death threats, which many can’t afford the body guards for.

Ask for a moment of silence of all the victims of the 1930’s in the Soviet Union when the New York Times would not tell the truth and covered it up.

All the victims of Hitler who could have been saved if the truth and action had been taken sooner.

All the victims of the Muslim genocide of Christians and Jews in the Ottoman Empire and its successor states from 1890 to the present and for not naming what is causing this.

Another moment for all those who almost died in the cold war and might still from letting Russia, China, Pakistan, North Korea, and now it appears Iran get nuclear weapons.

“”PC” may have been invented by some misguided liberals, “

From wiki

begin quote

The contemporary use of the term political correctness is said to derived from Marxist-Leninist vocabulary to describe the Party Line. [1]

The term was transformed and used jokingly within the Left by the early 1980s, possibly earlier. [citation needed] In this context, the phrase was applied to either an over-commitment to various left-wing political causes, especially within Marxism or the feminist movement; or to a tendency by some of those dedicated to these causes to be more concerned with rhetoric and vocabulary than with substance.

end quote

Only those who have stood up for the Danish Cartoonists, and all others in hiding in Western
or Muslim lands for speaking the truth have a moral right to call Goode, Pat Buchanan or anyone else a bigot.

All those in the MSM, or Democratic Party or Clinton Administration who called Pat Buchanan a bigot for saying restrict immigration then in the 1996 Clinton Dole presidential race should apologize to the 9-11 families. They knew on 9-11, that their words had cost the 3000 people their lives.

The MSM, Clinton and Bush teams then pre-emptively used PC language to frighten the 9-11 families from questioning why immigration continued after the WTC 1993 attack by Muslim immigrants. This goes on and we are watching the same techniques used on 9-11 on TV and afterwards against the 9-11 Families on Virgil Goode.

Good bumper sticker Caroline. That’s what Virgi Goode or Bay Buchanan should say next time they get accosted by the MSM apology police.

Its interesting that the Saudi Religious Police, Paul Begala, and the MSM police all want Virgil Goode and Bay Buchanan to say the same thing.

I wonder if Virgil Goode’s two names have something to do with his deciding to stand up for truth and Americans.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at December 21, 2006 10:21 PM

The next time Bay Buchanan is on Wolf Blitzer with Begala and they ask her to apologize and ritually denounce Goode, she should say, do you guys work for the Saudi Religious Police?

CNN should have had Robert Spencer instead of Bay Buchanan to be the opposite view to Paul Begala.

They chose Bay Buchanan because she doesn’t know enough about Islam and all the history to answer PC loaded, surrender or be called a bigot questions. To stand up to those you need an enormous amount of knowledge.

They chose her as their victim intentionally.

The answer to PC is knowledge. But you have to have a lot of knowledge to be able to use it on the spot on TV with the sickle of being denounced as a bigot hanging over your head.

Begala preps people for TV and debate. He knows what it is. He knew what he was doing.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at December 21, 2006 10:32 PM

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html

Standing up to PC loaded questions to denounce someone takes the specialized knowledge and daily practice in Islam and current events involving it of a Robert Spencer. Its like surgery or litigation. You need someone who does it every day.

Begala knew that. That’s why he picked on Bay Buchanan. He had choreographed that denunciation of Virgil Goode the way a football coach scripts out the first plays of a football game. In fact, he did it like a Paul Begala scrips out a gotcha gimmick in a political debate.

This article represents hypotheses, speculation or opinion. It is draft and preliminary. All other disclaimers apply.

Posted in 9-11 Families, Bay Buchanan, Judicial Watch IRS Audit, Pat Buchanan, Paul Begala, Paula Jones IRS Audit, Uncategorized | 3 Comments »

Virgil Goode Right: Stop Muslim Immigration

December 20, 2006

We must stop Muslim immigration to save Western civilization and ultimately our own lives. Political Correctness about Islam or Muslims is lethal.

Why is it moral to bomb people in Iraq but not moral to stop them coming here to kill us? They can’t come here and kill us if they can’t come here. Why is it moral to bomb people in Iraq but not moral to keep the same people coming here as immigrants?

There should be no immigration in time of war. Virgil Goode is right. Stop immigration. This is where we decide whether to win this war or not.

Many people, who disagree with Goode, and many who agree with him will feel they must call me or others on my side bigot. People should feel free to take back those words or move on from them to the substance of the debate.
If people are overcome by PC, that should be ignored as well. Everyone should feel free to revise and extend their remarks because they felt overcome by PC. Its a daily experience we all feel, called fear.

PC-pecking, A method by which all Liberals keep all people in a state of fear. (paraphrase from Firing Line debate many years back on henpecking.)

Surgeons have what the call bleed time. This is a period of time after the first incision. In our PC drenched culture, the equivalent is bigot calling time. This is an initial period when a liberal, or a PC fearful conservative, has to call others bigot, even if they agree with them.

When asked as a ritual to call others bigot, point it out. I decline to call Virgil Goode a bigot. Like Reagen, can turn it around and say, I decline to call my opponent mean spirted or lacking in courtesy.

This debate should be had in good humor. The excesses of rhetoric on both sides should be regarded as good clean fun. We must, in time of war, hold ourselves to the consequences of our choices, not to the high spirits of the debate. We must all live together with the deaths of our people that will continue in this war, both here and there.
Over 3,000 people were killed in the terrorist incidents up to and including 9-11. More have died since then here and there. We owe this debate our best arguments. If that requires use of rhetoric on either side that is a little heavy going, we should respond on the basis of substance. It also allows people to take back what they said or move on, and always to focus on the substance and the consequences.

All remarks here or elsewhere by me should be understod to be revised in that way. There are so many remarks calling this author a bigot that it would be impossible to keep track of them all or even a portion.
This post is draft and preliminary and represents some notes on posts made at various sites. This post will be cleaned up and revised as time permits.

December 20th, 2006 at 10:18:21 From: Fallaci Admirer

bin Laden’s Fatwa: Kill Americans
“We — with God’s help — call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God’s order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it.”

They believe the Koran commans them to kill every American. “On that basis, and in compliance with God’s order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies — civilians and military — is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it”

http://www.rawstory.com/comments/24293.html

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html

bin Laden’s Fatwa: Kill Americans

“We — with God’s help — call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God’s order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it.”

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html bin Laden Fatwa 1998

They believe the Koran commands “every Muslim to kill the Americans, civilians and military”.

“On that basis, and in compliance with God’s order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies — civilians and military — is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it”

And in August 1998, embassies, Cole 2000, WTC 2001 and Pentagon 2001, etc. they did it according to this Fatwa. 9-11 was done by legal immigrants who came after the WTC 1993 attack.

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002189.php

THE INTERNATIONAL
LESBIAN AND GAY ASSOCIATION

“1. Sources

The primary source for Islamic Law is the Koran. The second element is known as the Sunna, these being the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed and his oldest disciples not explicitly found in the Koran. The third element of Shari’a Law is known as the Ijma. These are rules developed on the basis of debate and subsequent consensus among religious scholars and the Moslem community as a whole. When these three main sources fail to provide adequate guidance, they are supplemented by a system in which the jurist can draw parallels with the first three sources (the Qiyas). Finally, there are several other methods for developing judgements, each of which allows increased use of discretion by the jurist. These latter sources allow for the development of Shari’a Law in more liberal jurisdictions, but are rejected in more conservative jurisdictions.”

“In the Hadith, homosexual behaviour is condemned harshly: “whenever a male mount another male, the throne of God trembles”……… if you see two people who act like the people of Lot, then kill the active and the passive”.”

“Legal Sanctions
The punishment that the Islamic jurists generally prescribe for adultery, and therefore also for homosexual behaviour, is stoning to death for married people, and 100 lashes for unmarried people…”

“
Gays flee Iraq as Shia death squads find a new target” Jennifer Copestake Guardian August 6, 2006.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1838222,00.html

http://www.ilga.info/Information/Legal_survey/middle%20east/supporting%20files/sharia_law.htm

Sharia Koran

http://www.google.com/search?q=Sharia+Koran&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

http://www.omdurman.org/sharia.html

“
Saudi Religious Police burn schoolgirls to death for being improperly dressed Saudi police ’stopped’ fire rescue
Saudi Arabia’s religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.”

“TEHRAN (Reuters) - An Iranian man cut off his seven- year-old daughter’s head after suspecting she had been raped by her uncle, the Jomhuri-ye Eslami newspaper said on Sunday.
…”The motive behind the killing was to defend my honor, fame, and dignity,” the paper quoted the father as saying. (Source)”

“Judicial Rape in Iran and the Sudan
Women, Islam & Equality describes Iran’s version of the “Muslim” religion:

According to a “religious” decree, virgin women prisoners must as a rule be raped before their execution, “lest they go to Paradise.”"

” It (US) also leads in murders and other violent felonies.”

murder site:Vdare.com

crime immigration site:Vdare.com

crime immigration site:Amren.com

Borjas black site:Vdare.com

“The employment rate of black men in the United States fell precipitously from 89.6 percent in 1960 to 76.1 percent in 2000… The decline in labor market participation among black men was accompanied by a rapid increase in the number of black men in correctional institutions. As recently as 1980, only 0.8 percent of black men … were incarcerated. By 2000, 9.6 percent of black men … were incarcerated.”

From Steve Sailer

http://www.vdare.com/sailer/060924_crime.htm

December 20th, 2006 at 11:27:11 From: Fallaci Admirer
“UK: Police killer escapes in veil”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014490.php

http://www.rawstory.com/comments/24311.html

http://islamstrueface.blogspot.com/2005/07/muslim-atrocities.html

“All other religions, despite their bloody past are now only concerned with personal piety and spiritual development of their followers. Some of them also get involved in works of charity like Salvation Army, Habitat for Humanity, etc. But Muslims are the only group that still thinks of Jihad, and expansion of their religion through violent means. Muslims are the only group that believes their god has given them the mission to kill those who reject him. Muslims are the only group that still endeavors to impose the antiquated misogynistic laws of their “holy” book. And Muslims are the only group that has not apologized for the crimes of their past and keeps committing those crimes even today.”

“I am a former muslim convert, and the religion of Islam fascinated me. Being the pacifist i was, i was drawn to the “religion of peace.” Until i discovered the truth about the religion, and my purpose is to share it with you I intend by all means neccesary to remain anonymous, for death is the punishment for apostates and those who speak ill of Islam. Contact me at: kaffirtruthseeker@hotmail.com”

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002187.php

Muslim atrocities

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=0mO&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Muslim+atrocities&spell=1

http://biblia.com/islam/islam.htm

December 20th, 2006 at 11:55:50 From: Fallaci Admirer
MSM bemoans defeat
What is new and interesting in this op-ed blog? The MSM don’t like being confronted with fact. Men’s median wages are lower today than in 1973. This is caused by immigration that Wall Street Journal pushes. Black men’s incarceration rates are up from before the 1965 Immigration Act to today by an increase in a factor of ten, from less then 1 percent to about 9 percent. The percentage employed drop by a similar figure. Its this fact, the WSJ doesn’t want pushed back at it. See

http://www.vdare.com/sailer/060924_crime.htm

http://www.rawstory.com/comments/24321.html

“Spencer’s Truth About Muhammad banned in Pakistan!”

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014495.php

December 20th, 2006 at 12:44:39 From: Fallaci Admirer
“Ignorance” about Islam, Jihadwatch the cure
“Sixth month in jail for Saudi woman involuntarily divorced from husband by half-brothers”

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/014488.php

“2006: The Year Of Perpetual Muslim Outrage”

By Michelle Malkin

http://www.vdare.com/malkin/061219_outrage.htm

December 20th, 2006 at 12:55:39 From: Fallaci Admirer

Save the soldiers, invade Iran now
They also serve who keep our total deaths lower. Fighting now does that. We lost 6,825 on Iwo Jima, from Wiki. That was one battle. We lost under 200 in the combat phase in Iraq. We could defeat all the main enemy homelands, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia for less. We paid 3000 occupation phase deaths for the Iraqi bases. We have bases on 3 sides of Iran. Battle phase deaths in Iraq were under 200. Time to fight wars is when battle phase deaths are 200. We will lose millions when they have nukes or more of them come here by immigration and kill us here. They can’t kill us here if we don’t let them come here.

http://www.rawstory.com/comments/24293.html

“Only to the same extent it was a “problem” to have a large Catholic immigrant population in a traditionally Protestant one. That is, people like Goode may have a problem with it but who cares?”

<a href=”http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=i0Q&q=%22Christian+genocide%22&btnG=Search”>
“Christian genocide” </a>

No Muslim land has not forced out or genocided all the non-Muslims, or isn’t doing it now.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/9391.html

http://digg.com/political_opinion/Rep_Virgil_Goode_does_his_part_to_help_spread_Islam#c4353375

“No Muslim land has not forced out or genocided all the non-Muslims, or isn’t doing it now.

Unless I really don’t understand the situation in Darfur, your comment is incorrect unless you want to get pendantic and technical in your parsing (i.e. “Muslim land”). ” from Edo

First, a technical response, then a response on Darfur.
Darfur genocide is described by CS Monitor as Arab Muslims on black Muslims as victims. This is not in conflict with the statement “No Muslim land has not forced out … the non-Muslims”, since Darfur as so-described is not part of the subject matter of this statement.

Now as for Darfur.

“Sudan, like most African postcolonial states, is partially a victim of imperial cartography. Thoughtlessly carved out by the British during the 19th-century scramble to claim Africa, Sudan is a forced crucible of Muslim Arabs and black Africans. The blacks in the south either hew to their ancestral traditional African religions or have converted to Christianity. The fact that black Africans in Darfur are exclusively Muslim has not stopped the Arab Janjaweed militias and the government from exterminating them.”

<a href=”http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0714/p09s02-coop.html”>
CS Monitor on Darfur </a>

Arab Muslims consider blacks, Muslim or not to be not their equals. Arab Muslims for centuries had a slave trade in blacks that involved their not surviving long term.

Basically, the Arabs for over a 1000 years took blacks as slaves and then didn’t breed them as in the old South in the US but instead prevented that by various means. The result of this history is a permanent state of mind of Arabs towards blacks.

This comes from the time when Arabs were Muslim and blacks were not. The same treatment is being applied to the blacks by the Arabs today as in the time that blacks were not Muslim.

Thus the Darfur genocide is inherited from prior genocide by Arab Muslims of blacks for centuries as part of their slave management methods.

“No Muslim land has not forced out or genocided all the non-Muslims, or isn’t doing it now.

Unless I really don’t understand the situation in Darfur, your comment is incorrect unless you want to get pendantic and technical in your parsing (i.e. “Muslim land”). ” from Edo

Now as for Darfur.

<a href=”http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0714/p09s02-coop.html”>
CS Monitor on Darfur </a>

Arab Muslims consider blacks, Muslim or not to be not their equals. Arab Muslims for centuries had a slave trade in blacks that involved their not surviving long term.

This comes from the time when Arabs were Muslim and blacks were not. The same treatment is being applied to the blacks by the Arabs today as in the time that blacks were not Muslim.

Thus the Darfur genocide is inherited from prior genocide by Arab Muslims of blacks for centuries as part of their slave management methods.

See Susan Stephen on <a href=”http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/SStephan/islamic_slavery.htm”>Arab Slave Trade </a>

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/9391.html

December 20th, 2006 at 16:06:53 From: Fallaci Admirer
Immigration => Exploitation
Taking contrapositives, no exploitation implies no immigration.

http://www.rawstory.com/comments/24342.html

this is correct.

there can’t be an absence of exploitation unless there
is an absence of immigration.

look at truth table.

Immigration => exploitation

I=> E is true, means following pairs allowed

I E
-I E
-I -E

the pair not allowed is I,-E.

so -E implies -I

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Classroom/9912/easterntrade.html

“
The survival rate of this process ranged from 1 in 10 to 1 in 30.
“

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0714/p09s02-coop.html

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/slavetra.html

http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa040201a.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfur_conflict

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0714/p09s02-coop.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_U.S._embassy_bombings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar_es_Salaam

Arabs slaves blacks

http://www.google.com/search?q=Arabs+slaves+blacks&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/2005/11/009139print.html

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/slavetra.html

Arab slavery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Somalia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanzania#The_Maji_Maji_War

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17747

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biafra#Meaning_of_the_word_.22Biafra.22_and_location_of_Biafra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maji_Maji

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Political_map_of_Somalia_showing_Jowhar.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Place_in_the_sun

http://www.democrats.com/node/11451

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/9391.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_U.S._embassy_bombings

http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa040201a.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanzania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanzibar#Slave_and_ivory_trade

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17747

Christians Ottomans

“Muslims For A Safe America conducted a survey at the Islamic Society of North America’s 43rd Annual Convention in Chicago from September 1, 2006 to September 4, 2006. 307 Muslims who are American citizens participated in the survey at the Muslims For A Safe America booth at ISNA,” the organization reports. Some respones:

2. Do you consider yourself to be a Muslim first, an American first, or both equally?
MUSLIM FIRST 214
AMERICAN FIRST 4
BOTH EQUALLY 86
UNDECIDED 3

3. Is the American government at war with the religion of Islam?
YES 208
NO 79
UNDECIDED 20

5. Did Muslims hijack planes and fly them into buildings on 9/11?
YES 117
NO 139
UNDECIDED 51

6. Did the U.S. government have advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks, and allow the attacks to occur?
YES 200
NO 70
UNDECIDED 37
7. Did the U.S. government organize the 9/11 attacks?
YES 106
NO 151
UNDECIDED 50

8. Are the tapes of Osama Bin Laden, claiming responsibility for the 9/11 attacks and threatening future attacks, real or fake?
REAL 126
FAKE 129
UNDECIDED 52

9. Did Muslims commit the July 2005 train and bus bombings in London?
YES 140
NO 104
UNDECIDED 63

21. Should Iran develop nuclear weapons?
YES 161
NO 123
UNDECIDED 23

25. Was America justified in invading Afghanistan after 9/11?
YES 51
NO 248
UNDECIDED 8

The organization notes that “this was NOT a scientific survey, because ISNA Convention attendees who visited the Muslims For A Safe America booth are not necessarily representative of the American Muslim community as a whole.” We really hope so.

Posted by Daniel Freedman at October 26, 2006 11:22 AM

<a href=”http://www.shinesforall.com/archives/2006/10/muslims_for_a_s.html”>
Source </a>

http://www.shinesforall.com/archives/2006/10/muslims_for_a_s.html

“Muslim first” “american first”

http://blogsearch.google.com/blogsearch?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Muslim+first%22++%22american+first%22&btnG=Search+Blogs

http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/11/will_islam_dominate_the_future.html

“
The other principal focus of Steyn’s book is on the inability of contemporary multiculturalism to provide a meaningful, vigorous base on which to sustain and defend Western civilization. On the contrary, as Steyn sharply remarks,

‘multiculturalism was conceived by the Western elites not to celebrate all cultures but to deny their own.’

Hence, ‘the governing principle of multicultural society’ is that ‘Western man demonstrates his cultural sensitivity by pre—emptively surrendering.’ This already is happening in Europe, which Steyn thoroughly documents. But it even is happening in the United States — see the craven response by our political and media establishment to last year’s Cartoon Intifada, and the continued refusal by our law enforcement agencies to engage in ‘racial profiling’ as part of a sensible anti—terrorism strategy. Steyn surely is correct that multiculturalism, and its philosophical twin internationalism, cannot provide the ideological meat needed to maintain a healthy body politic.
“
Airplanes

cameras in toilets.

people will be cleaner too.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/needtoknow/2006/08/historical_parallels_to_todays.html

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/02/poll_reveals_40.php

http://www.swordscrossed.org/node/754 “we are all Hizballah now.”

http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/11/will_islam_dominate_the_future.html

http://www.digitalbrownpajamas.com/digital_brownpajamas/2006/08/index.html

‘
Being a Muslim first is a wholly different thing from being a Christian first.
“

“
Being Muslim first brought about the kinds of countries that oppress, enslave, and murder their own people, motivating them by the hundreds of thousands to flee those countries to places like this one, and then criticize it.

Being a Christian first causes me to pray for the conversion of Muslims to engage them where possible in conversation to convince them to believe in Christ and be saved.

Being Muslim first causes them to threaten the infidel with death by the sword, to infiltrate nations in the desire to bring them under Sharia.
“

http://www.womenswallstreet.com/columns/column.aspx?aid=946&p=1

Operation Bojinka

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005699.htm

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/06/22/the-great-divide-pew-surveys-muslim-public-opinion/

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=253

==
==

“I am laughing at Old Atlantic… I could post just as much stuff from the Bible that makes Christians look like Christianofascists!” from Happy Monkey. These are things happening now and being said now.

They are a continuation of the same things from the past. There is no break point for Islam.

“Have you ever heard of Turkey? A Muslim country to the very core, yet ruled under a civil code of law for the last century?” from Robert.

See URL attached to this post for source and link to NY Times from 1914.

The last century goes back to include 1914.

The Young “secular” Turks were in power in Turkey by 1914. They continued the same genocide of Christians that was going on in the 1890’s. They killed over 1 million Christians.

“From January 13, 1915 New York Times:

“Talaat Bey, the Minister of the Interior, has stated to the Councillor of the Greek Patriarchate that in Turkey henceforth there will be room only for Turks. While he was profuse in assurance to the Greek Minister regarding the cessation of anti- Greek persecutions, no real amelioration of the situation is perceptible.””

http://www.omdurman.org/sharia.html is about things happening now.

9-11 happened in 2001. Did you laugh on that day at those who said to stop Muslim immigration? All 19 hijackers were immigrants from after the WTC 1993 attack. No immigration, no 3000 killed.

What purpose does immigration serve? Men’s median wages are below what they were in 1973? You are programmed to want your own destruction. You are frustrated when someone tells the truth, that is why so many react to Virgil Goode.

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002189.php

http://www.hoffmania.com/blog/2006/12/dennis_prager_j.html#comment-26817138

“
Sooner or later every Muslim land genocides or forces out non-Muslims. This is going on today in Lebanon, Bethlehem, etc.

Posted by: Old Atlantic | Dec 20, 2006 5:22:17 PM
“

Countries are the way they are because of the people.

Australia and NZ are different than surrounding countries because of the people.

If they come from those countries, they behave that way. America will become those countries. That is happening with Hispanic immigration.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/9391.html

29.

Reply to Edo.

The Arab Muslims in Sudan have for centuries exploited blacks, Muslim or not in Sudan. This includes slavery and other bad treatment. You must have somehow misunderstood my comment.

“your claim that all genocides are Christian is just as false”

I think this is the root of your misconception. The issue with Virgil Goode is whether he is right that Muslim immigration is a threat. The proposition that Muslim lands end up genociding non-Muslims goes to that issue. The question is whether have a positive probability to genocide non-Muslims. If so, then allowing their immigration reduces welfare to non-Muslims here. That proves Muslim immigration should not be allowed. That’s the issue.

Muslims have genocided Christians, Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Africans with other beliefs, and others.

Since the Darfur genocide victims are primarily Muslim and the genociders are Muslim, Judaism and Christianity are not directly relevant. However, the Arab Muslims in Sudan get their tendency to genocide blacks in Sudan, even black Muslims, from their history of genocide of non-Muslim blacks in Africa. That is the meaning of the inheritance, i.e. genocide of black Muslims in Sudan is inherited from genocide of blacks.

Think of black as the root, and Muslim as a branch. The branch inherits from the root. In this case its a little more complicated since its a relation from Arab Muslims to blacks, but that relation can inherit as well.

The prior genocide by Arab Muslims of those in the south of Sudan did involve many Christians as victims.

Comment by Old Atlantic — 12/20/2006 @ 8:36 pm
30.

That should have been black as root and black Muslim as the branch.

Comment by Old Atlantic — 12/20/2006 @ 8:38 pm

If Muslims discriminate, commit crime, or genocide non-Muslims that is a reason to keep them out.

and if non Muslims do those things to Muslims its a reason to keep the Muslims out.
(to prevent this)

the former is a reason even if the latter is.

Liberalism is anti-West and hates West.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1705411,00.html

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/2006/10/12/timothy-garton-ash-tells-islamophobes-to-stop-whingeing.html

need to face reality.

European civilization and possibly human life on earth, at least as
we know it, is dying as well.

Liberalism is trying to destroy liberalism.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoonprotests/story/0,,1707576,00.html

http://alcuinbramerton.blogspot.com/2006/02/jyllands-posten-muhammad-cartoon-row_25.html

==Ricketson Comment

Mr. Goode’s comments are thuroughly un-American. In America, we do not conflate religion and nationality. There are a number of countries that do consider religion to be part of nationality– collectively, they care called “the old world”–look to Europe and the Middle East for examples.

Our ancestors came to America to create a new world. If Mr. Goode doesn’t like it, and wants to live in a “Christian” nation, he can leave.

Posted by: Adam Ricketson
Date: December 20, 2006 08:21 PM

= Comment on Ricketson
“In America, we do not conflate religion and nationality.”

Islam does conflate religion with politics.

“Mr. Goode’s comments are thuroughly un-American.”

Therefore, for you, Islam is un-American.

” There are a number of countries that do consider religion to be part of nationality– collectively, they care called “the old world”–look to Europe and the Middle East for examples.”

There is a poll from Jordan University that most Muslims in each Middle East country want Sharia as the sole or a source of law.

So you should object to immigration from them.

Robert Spencer wants a survey as part of immigration. You should support that.

“Our ancestors came to America to create a new world. If Mr. Goode doesn’t like it, and wants to live in a “Christian” nation, he can leave.”

Given your statements, and the above facts, that shows that for you, Muslims should leave. Thus your conclusion is not only that Muslims should not immigrate, but that they should leave.

Goode does not in fact advocate conflating religion and state, but Islam does. Read Jihadwatch.org.

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002206.php

“I’ve vacationed in Turkey, and if you’re trying to portray that country as anything less than a secular democracy with the most wonderful people you could ever hope to meet, then there’s no doubt in my mind, you’re a Zionist.” from Jenny above.

After the Pope’s remarks, a priest was killed in Turkey. Search on

Christian Turkey

and add Priest, discrimination, etc. and you will
find many articles on persecution there.

Also add the words site:jihadwatch.org.

The Pope was in Turkey in part to complain about discrimination of Christians. There are many incidents against Christians in Turkey. They don’t have equal rights.

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002189.php

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/12/20/goode-apology/#comment-1300904

Its intended by Islam that non-Muslims fear Islam and Muslims. Thus Islam intends Islamophobia in non-Muslims. Islam says to invite people to Islam before attacking them. So Islam intends Islamophobia for non-Muslims.

By OldAtlantic | Dec 20, 2006 10:38:43 PM |

“

Old Atlantic, why do you live in the past? Because you are a failure today?

Comment by JPark — December 20, 2006 @ 10:28 pm
“
Islam from 622 AD has used fear, war, genocide, democide, etc. on non-Muslims. There is no break point at which Islam stopped using such methods. Every majority Muslim land today is engaged in persecution of Christians, regardless of race or national origin.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/12/20/goode-apology/#comment-1300961

Old Atlantic…how has Christianity expanded? Would you like me to count the ways? (which are very similar).

Comment by JPark — December 20, 2006 @ 10:46 pm

The Koran was written in 656 AD. Islam attacked the West in 633 AD as Islam according to itself. The Koran was written during occupation of parts of the Eastern Roman Empire. The Koran commands what was done from 633 AD onwards, was being done in 656 AD and what they might want to do. The Caliphate controlled the final version. They put into it what they were doing in the war.

Thus the Koran freezes wartime propaganda as Islam in the Koran. This is unlike Christianity. Christianity lacks the commands in Islam to kill non-believers, etc. See Jihadwatch.org or bin Laden’s Fatwas.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/12/20/goode-apology/#comment-1301117

==
Immigration causes genetic survival ratios to asymptote to zero. Search on “Unpleasant Immigration Arithemetic”. It is irrational to support sustained immigration because it causes the genetic extinction not only of those here now, but of each year’s cohort of immigrants.

At 300 million steady population, a 75 year lifetime gives 4 million deaths per year. 2 million immigrants then leaves 2 million births in the steady state. 2 million births over 4 million deaths gives a per generation genetic survival ratio of 1/2. Thus in 3 generations one is down to 1/8. If 25 years is the relevant birth to parent time span on average, then one gets extinction in 75 to 100 years. This applies to each annual cohort that comes here. Even if we went to 450 million and had 1 million immigrants per year, similar consequences apply, the deaths per year are 6 million and one gets 5/6 survival ratio per generation. That leads to to about 1/2 in 3 generations or 75 years. So in 150 years one is down to 1/4.
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002206.php
== Alt Proof Unpleasant Immigration Arithmetic

http://arizona.typepad.com/blog/2006/10/real_real_immig.html

Consider this proof. Suppose the genetic survival probability , p, was greater than epsilon > 0. (We really have p(t,T) where t is some start date and T a later date, but we suppress that notation).

Let N be immigrant genes in from date t at date T.

Np is the average number of genes. Since p > epsilon, Np is greater than N epsilon.

Thus Np > B, for N > B/p for any B.

However, the population must be bounded above by some B.

Thus the expected number of genes is greater than an upper bound, a contradiction.

Thus there does not exist epsilon > 0 such that p > epsilon. Thus the genetic survival probability, p, must asympote to zero as N increases.

“Hardy - Weinberg equilibrium calculations only track the survival of a mutational gene in a population, and have zero bearing on human immigration patterns.” The first post gives a numerical example. The second gives a proof for a stochastic process.

This is largely independent of the mechanism.

Genes are large enough to be thought of as tagged or identifiable, they are not quantum particles that are indistinguishable.

You can think of the above proof as applying where we track each gene in perpetuity. Hardy Weinberg doesn’t try to do that in its proof, but simplifies to a form of identical particles, although using classical statistics.

You don’t have to know anything about Hardy Weinberg to follow either the proof or the numerical example. Both of those are valid on their own.

http://arizona.typepad.com/blog/2006/10/real_real_immig.html#comment-26821453

In Hardy Weinberg derivation at wiki, they assume, dear friend, no migration.

“No migration (gene flow)”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardy-Weinberg_principle

“Of course, from a scientific standpoint Old Atlantic’s blather is complete nonsense. Hardy - Weinberg equilibrium calculations only track the survival of a mutational gene in a population, and have zero bearing on human immigration patterns.”

Who is blathering my friend? You try to apply a model with no migration to a migration situation? Who is blathering?

Posted by: Old Atlantic | December 20, 2006 at 09:37 PM

“Comment: Pseudo Science! All rubbish garbage!! racist drivel!!”
Posted by:
Date: December 21, 2006 12:41 AM

This is a numerical example. It does simplify some, but its easy to follow and complications wouldn’t change the results. Numerical examples and theorems are not racist drivel.

Another way to see it is as follows. Suppose that genetic survival probabilities were bounded from below by .1. Suppose one had 10 billion people come in. Then .1 times 10 billion is 1 billion. Thus we would have 1 billion genes as the expected value. Suppose the population couldn’t go above 500 million. Then this would show that the genetic survival probability would have to go below .1

There is a tradeoff between genetic survival probabilities, total immigrants entering (a function of time), and the upper bound on population.

There is a substitution effect caused by immigration. As people come in the direct effect is to increase population, but the substitution effect is to substitute for births. This is as old as history.

Immigrants displace natives or prior immigrant cohorts, and that leads to a partial substitution of immigrants for births. Once births fall below replacement, 2.1 births per woman is a standard figure, then the result is declining numbers of genes until either immigration stops or zero is reached. That’s why Buchanan and others talk about the death of the West and low birth rates in Europe and America, the substitution effect in front of our eyes.

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002206.php

== Fertility Rates Europe
Map

http://www.overpopulation.com/faq/Basic_Information/total_fertility_rate/europe.html

This site lets you look at other regions, e.g. Middle East and Central Asia, which have high birth rates. That is part of their problem. It makes them look towards more extreme answers, i.e. hatred of us for the problems causd by their high birth rate. When they come here, they come with the attitude of invaders, and 9-11 is the result of that attitude. Discrimination, street crime, dirty looks, talking behind our backs, paint ball jihadis, SUV jihadis, etc. are lower level forms of this. All of which happens.

“They came as a nomadic tribe, and it clearly advocated genocide, specifically of the people of Canaan.”

Islam specifies all non-Muslims.

” Religion tends to have violence and the right to conquest written into it, therefore Islam is no different from many others.”

This concedes the point that Islam is violent. Since you admit Islam is violent, the conclusion is not to want Muslim immigration. That is what Goode said.

“Please take your hate and ignorance somewhere else. Hate is not welcome here.” You are shown to contradict your side of the argument by your statements. Isn’t that a form of intolerance? When you make logical errors and then call your forum colleague a hater, are you not engaged in poor reasoning?

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/12/20/goode-apology/#comment-1301307

Darren7160,

Thank you for parsing my argument. My reply is as follows.

“No, he said that Mr. Goode’s position was un-American”

Adam Ricketson used an argument to reach the conclusion. He attributed to Goode the idea that religion and state should be conflated, and based on that Ricketson concluded that Goode was un-American. I then held Ricketson to his claim that conflating religion and state is un-American. Since that is done in Islam, Ricketson is bound by Ricketson’s argument to conclude that Islam, for Ricketson, is un-American.

“Your presumption is that all Muslim immigrants are part of that “most” you cited as wanting Sharia? Are they the most likely to be the ones immigrating to America?”

The 19 on 9-11 clearly did. If we can’t tell, they can’t come. That is in our interest. They don’t have a right to come here.

“And what? By God we will bomb them outta that wish?”

If they can’t come here, they can’t come here and kill us, as they did between WTC 93 and WTC and Pentagon 2001. All the 19 immigrants came in after the WTC 93 attack. Republicans were attacked as bigots for wanting to stop immigration then. Peter Jennings and the MSM realized that on 9-11, realized his guilt, and then pre-emptively attacked restrictionists as bigots to cover up his own guilt. Norman Mineta did the same the next day on profiling. We now know he had warnings before 9-11 that were specific. His reason not to put in profiling on 9-12 was part of the coverup of those warnings. See Complete 9-11 Timeline, which is trying to raise money for a matching grant.

” As long as America holds to its Constitution, no religion will be able to dictate to America…”

The question at issue is how to keep Islam in particular from so dictating. Goode proposes stopping Muslim immigration, which is a sufficient condition, assuming low conversion rates.

“unless we weaken it by blurring the borders with 10 Commandments in courthouses.” The problem is blurring our physical borders by immigration.

I appreciate your personal history in Turkey and taking time to look at my site.

“Turkey is a secular democratic Muslim country that has looked towards Europe and found that Western Europe will never accept them until they “Become Western”.”

They killed a priest after the Pope’s remarks. They have restrictions on Churches. There is still violence against Christians.

“helped us in the first Gulf war.” But not the second.

Also it was the secular Young Turks in control in 1914 who killed over 1 million Christians. That was the secular government. At the same time they helped us in Korea, they also had more violence and discrimination against Christians.

Thank you for your thoughtful comments,

Old Atlantic

Posted by: Old Atlantic
Date: December 21, 2006 09:03 AM

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002206.php#comments

“However, my understanding of history is that invading Muslim armies were remarkably tolerant on “infidels” living in their midst.”

Sometimes. The problem is if they eventually get around to genocide, or forcing out, then its not so good. Also the second class status is not so good anyhow. Do we want to be second class in our own country? Isn’t that a reason to stop Muslim immigration? Goode says let’s not be second class to Muslims in America and people call him a bigot for that?

“However, my understanding of history is that invading Muslim armies were remarkably tolerant on “infidels” living in their midst.”

At times they were. But at other times, not. Once they took over, over time, second class status wore people down. There are no longer many Christians in most Muslim countries. Where did they go? They either converted, left or died out. Genocide doesn’t have to happen fast. Most ones are slow.

“If this widespread genocidal tendency of Muslims is true, would there be Spaniards, Greeks, or Serbs today?”

There are few Christians left in Muslim countries today, such as Turkey which had a large Christian population in 1914, see link attached to my name.

The groups you mention refought and reclaimed their lands with help. In Turkey the Christians were genocided by secular Turks. Bethlehem was 85 percent Christian in 1948 and is 12 percent today. Constantinople was over 50 percent Christian in 1914.

Also a group can be subjected to genocide and still have people alive today. Jews were genocided in WWII, but there are still Jews.

” How about Indians in India?” There has been extensive genocide by Muslims against Hindus and others in India.

Tamerlane’s attack on Delhi is an example. There are projections or claims of as high as 70 million.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/9391.html

bin Laden’s 1998 Fatwa with bold on quotables

The depth of their attack is because Goode told the truth.

After WTC 93 attack they should have stopped immigration. Buchanan said to and they called him a racist bigot. The 19 hijackers came in “legally” after WTC 93. The MSM, Democrats, even Republicans had to lie on 9-11 and call restrictionists bigots to cover up their own complicity.

Mineta was covering up the next day. He said no profiling. The truth was he already had specific warnings. On 9-12, Mineta, was covering up the warnings.

Bush gave his religion of peace speech to cover up the August 6, 2001 PDB he got saying “bin Laden determined to attack in the United States”.
Bush had to have a reason to ignore the warning. His reason was that Islam is a religion of peace. That was his cover story for not responding to the warnings.

Bush killed the 3000 people by negligence. If Bush was commander of a ship he would have been court martialed and judged guilty and relieved.
Bush’s face on 9-11 was an, “I should be court martialed look”.

Congress should have impeached him for ignoring those warnings. Bush was covering up and obstructing Congress’s power of impeachment. He still is.

The attack on Virgil Goode, and on Tom Tancredo, etc. are all part of this cover up for the 9-11 guilt.

As much web presence on liberal blogs for this as possible is needed. Putting up basic information in a neutral way will help. What is “obvious” on Jihad Watch is totally unknown to many people.

Just cut and paste snippets with attribution from the many articles is enough to totally turn around and stop the liberal propaganda machine. This is vital. If your local newsaper allows comments, paste there. E-mail your rep or Senator. They are attacking Goode deliberately. They have had him in their sights and been planning this. Its not just spontaneous.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at December 21, 2006 12:51 PM

While sending comments to the Congressmen above, and stay very very polite, also send a copy to one of your Senators or your Congressman. Its better to do one than none.

Senate.gov

You can look up your Senator. Be polite and short and quote a snippet from Jihad Watch that makes them look at it.

House.gov

We want to build mind share with Congress for Jihad Watch. You can’t use html, but just use

www.jihadwatch.org.

We were attacked:

WTC 1993

East African embassies August 1998

USS Cole October 2000

WTC and Pentagon 2001.

Not until after the 4th attack did we do anything.

Bin Laden declared war in 1998.

Complete 9-11 Timeline

Can quote from above as well, short with the link as text.

“Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life.” On that basis, and in compliance with Allah’s order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies — civilians and military — is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. “

Posted by: Old Atlantic at December 21, 2006 01:37 PM

We were attacked, we are at war. Congress is supposed to protect us. That’s in the Constitution. Part of protecting us is stopping immigration by those who already attacked us from the inside. They have to do that, its in the Constitution.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at December 21, 2006 01:40 PM

Oath of Office

Source: Congressional Record (House) - Updated March 10, 2005

OATH OF OFFICE MEMBERS, RESIDENT COMMISSIONER, AND DELEGATES

The oath of office required by the sixth article of the Constitution of the United States, and as provided by section 2 of the act of May 13, 1884 (23 Stat. 22), to be administered to members, Resident Commissioner, and Delegates of the House of Representatives, the text of which is carried in 5 U.S.C. 3331:

“I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”

has been subscribed to in person and filed in duplicate with the Clerk of the House of Representatives by the following Members of the 109th Congress, pursuant to the provisions of 2 U.S.C. 25

After Pearl Harbor they fulfilled their oath by stopping immigration from Japan and Germany until after World War II was over, and our armies occupied all enemy homelands. They have to stop Muslim immigration until all enemy homelands in the 100 year war the Pentagon has said we are in are occupied or at real peace with us.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at December 21, 2006 01:46 PM

Christmas jihad

This is why there shouldn’t be Muslim immigration. How can they predict in advance Muslim terrorist attacks? Isn’t that “racist”?

This is why they attack Virgil Goode, he tells the truth. When they say Muslims will attack us, they should stop their immigration. They can’t have it both ways. If its predictable in advance, they should stop the immigration.
Posted by: Old Atlantic at December 21, 2006 12:45 PM

Troops dying Iraq in Afghanistan is in vain unless we win the war of hearts and minds at home. It may be your loved one who is saved from a future attack. There were sleeper cells from the 1980’s.

See
Complete 9-11 Timeline

Sleeper cells are entering the country legally now.

We need a web presence on liberal blog sites. Just quote snips with attribution from Jihad Watch articles in a neutral fact way. Turn the other cheek when they call you racist and just feed back facts.

Say Virgil Goode speaks for me. Virgil Goode stands up for me and I stand up for Virgil Goode. I join Virgil Goode in saying stop all Muslim immigration now.

They will go crazy, and that’s your opening to feed in facts in a neutral way. They also serve who fight the blog wars.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at December 21, 2006 12:57 PM

Oath for Senators

Posted by: Old Atlantic at December 21, 2006 01:59 PM

Preamble Constitution

Preamble
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
Posted by: Old Atlantic at December 21, 2006 02:03 PM