Archive for November, 2006

Baker Hamilton Munich Study Group

November 30, 2006

The Baker Hamilton Iraq Study Group is going to recommend that we give up our bases in Iraq that we paid 3000 lives for without using them to invade Iran. This is a blunder of not understanding what the fight is. Gingrich makes this point in the article linked to below.

James A. Baker III and Lee Hamilton understand process not substance. This is a good definition of “realist”. Realists give themselves credit for the fall of the USSR. But it was the lack of a price system and profit accounting that did it in.

It was the realists who let the USSR get the bomb. The realists allowed Hitler to rise to power. The realists undid the positives in the League of Nation. The realists wanted to live with fascism, communism, and now radical Islam. Its the realists who make us put the radical in front of Islam and make us say that Islam is the religion of peace. If Islam is what Saudi judges say it is, then what we have to call radical Islam is their version of Islam.

What they are proposing is the 1938 Munich Pact with the devil updated to the modern equivalents. They are selling us out. If you are realistic, you know, that’s what realists do.

It was the realists who arranged the 1975 helicopter airlift out of Saigon. Now they are proposing it for Baghdad. In 1975, they gave South Vietnam to North Vietnamese Hard Core Communists.

Now they give Iraq to Iran. These are hard core Islamofascists. They are also letting Iran develop nuclear weapons. They are letting Pakistan keep its.

The 27 pages linking Saudi Arabia to 9-11 were kept from the public by the realists. Saudi Arabia shows its gratitude to the Baker Botts law firm, Carlyle Group, Cohen Group perhaps, and others.

LA Times summary of the redacted 27 pages :

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/080303A.shtml

Saudi Government Provided Aid to 9/11 Hijackers, Sources Say
By Josh Meyer
The Los Angeles Times

Saturday 02 August 2003″

The 28 pages including the 27 blank pages are here. Hamilton and Kean said they couldn’t find any links of financing 9-11 to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. Evidently they read the blank pages public version instead of the actual report. For the Pakistan links they needed to read Christina Lamb columns in the London Times.

Bush’s first Munich Pact was with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan after 9-11. His others include further ones with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, as well as China, India Nuclear Deal, and now with Iran.

11 Key Tests for the Baker-Hamilton Report
By Newt Gingrich
Weekly Standard | November 29, 2006
Comments

Following Comment:

Date: 11/29/2006 8:59:48 AM
Name: Old Atlantic
Subject: Re 27 Pages on Saudi Arabia and 9-11, etc.
Comment: Congress did a report in 2003 with 27 pages that couldn’t be made public. The LA Times published a summary. Search on Saudi Arabia 9-11 and go to truthout.org.

After 9-11, Bush needed to tell the truth of Saudi and Pakistan links to terrorists to the American people. When America is attacked, the president has to level with the American people and tell them the truth.

Instead, Bush protected his Saudi friends and did a torture pact with Prince Bandar. At that point, he and we had lost the war.

In Nov 2001, Bush let Pakistan evacuate its generals from Kunduz in Afghanistan where they were advising the Taliban against us.

Because Bush did these things, he didn’t go after Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Those are the two main enemy homelands against us, along with Iran.

In WWII we island hopped to the Japanese mainland. We didn’t stop to nation build the islands. Nor did we nation build North Africa in 1942 after we invaded there. We went to Germany and Japan the two main enemy homelands. Unfortunately, we didn’t finish off the USSR then. That really is the source of many of our problems today.

Now we need to do a ground invasion of Iran and surround Pakistan and blockade it. We must make them give up their nukes, abolish religious law, courts, police, retire the judges, and end the call to prayers.The same must be done in Iran.

If Saudi Arabia does this on its own, it can avoid occupation.

We must strike North Korea now and destroy what we can of their nuclear facilities, missiles, sub yards, etc. South Korea has failed to support us even in minimal acts. We have an obligation to Japan, ourselves, and the region.

We must stop Chinese grad students coming here and displacing Americans in physics Ph.D. programs and inspect containers until the ships back up to China. We must end know-how transfer to China. Until we do that, China thinks it has bought our leaders, and its right.

==Background on Munich 1938

Wiki

====Munich Pact Text

Agreement concluded at Munich, September 29, 1938, between Germany, Great Britain, France and Italy

GERMANY, the United Kingdom, France and Italy, taking into consideration the agreement, which has been already reached in principle for the cession to Germany of the Sudeten German territory, have agreed on the following terms and conditions governing the said cession and the measures consequent thereon, and by this agreement they each hold themselves responsible for the steps necessary to secure its fulfilment:

(1) The evacuation will begin on 1st October.

(2) The United Kingdom, France and Italy agree that the evacuation of the territory shall be completed by the 10th October, without any existing installations having been destroyed, and that the Czechoslovak Government will be held responsible for carrying out the evacuation without damage to the said installations.

(3) The conditions governing the evacuation will be laid down in detail by an international commission composed of representatives of Germany, the United Kingdom, France, Italy and Czechoslovakia.

(4) The occupation by stages of the predominantly German territory by German troops will begin on 1st October. The four territories marked on the attached map will be occupied by German troops in the following order:

The territory marked No. I on the 1st and 2nd of October; the territory marked No. II on the 2nd and 3rd of October; the territory marked No. III on the 3rd, 4th and 5th of October; the territory marked No. IV on the 6th and 7th of October. The remaining territory of preponderantly German character will be ascertained by the aforesaid international commission forthwith and be occupied by German troops by the 10th of October.

(5) The international commission referred to in paragraph 3 will determine the territories in which a plebiscite is to be held. These territories will be occupied by international bodies until the plebiscite has been completed. The same commission will fix the conditions in which the plebiscite is to be held, taking as a basis the conditions of the Saar plebiscite. The commission will also fix a date, not later than the end of November, on which the plebiscite will be held.

(6) The final determination of the frontiers will be carried out by the international commission. The commission will also be entitled to recommend to the four Powers, Germany, the United Kingdom, France and Italy, in certain exceptional cases, minor modifications in the strictly ethnographical determination of the zones which are to be transferred without plebiscite.

(7) There will be a right of option into and out of the transferred territories, the option to be exercised within six months from the date of this agreement. A German-Czechoslovak commission shall determine the details of the option, consider ways of facilitating the transfer of population and settle questions of principle arising out of the said transfer.

(8) The Czechoslovak Government will within a period of four weeks from the date of this agreement release from their military and police forces any Sudeten Germans who may wish to be released, and the Czechoslovak Government will within the same period release Sudeten German prisoners who are serving terms of imprisonment for political offences.

Munich, September 29, 1938.
ADOLF HITLER,
NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN,
EDOUARD DALADIER,
BENITO MUSSOLINI.

from Avalon Project

===

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/munich.htm

The British Parliamentary Debate on the Munich Agreement


From Parliamentary Debates, 5th series, vol.339 (1938), cols 30, 31-34, 39, 40, 47-52, 54, 56-58, 62-63, 150-154, 162, 360-369, 373, 548-553.


DUFF COOPER, HOUSE OF COMMONS, OCTOBER 3, 1938.

“I besought my colleagues not to see this problem always in terms of Czechoslovakia, not to review it always from the difficult strategic position of that small country, but rather to say to themselves, “A moment may come when, owing to the invasion of Czechoslovakia, a European war will begin, and when that moment comes we must take part in that war, we cannot keep out of it, and there is no doubt upon which side we shall fight. Let the world know that and it will give those who are prepared to disturb the peace reason to hold their hand.”

We must not see this as a war about Iraq. As Gingrich wrote, and many others, its a wider war. In fact, the moment of fighting the wider war began no later than Sep 11, 2001.

It seems these things happen in September. Munich Pact, invasion of Poland 1939, etc.

” It was, however, a guarded statement. It was a statement to the effect that if there were such a war it would be unwise for anybody to count upon the possibility of our staying out.

That is not the language which the dictators understand. Together with new methods and a new morality they have introduced also a new vocabulary into Europe. They have discarded the old diplomatic methods of correspondence….”

So have the Islamic Republics and Kingdoms. They don’t understand the “old diplomatic methods of correspondence”.

PRIME MINISTER NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN, HOUSE OF COMMONS, OCTOBER 3, 1938.

“In my view the strongest force of all, one which grew and took fresh shapes and forms every day was the force not of any one individual, but was that unmistakable sense of unanimity among the peoples of the world that war somehow must be averted. The peoples of the British Empire were at one with those of Germany, of France and of Italy, and their anxiety, their intense desire for peace, pervaded the whole atmosphere of the conference, and I believe that that, and not threats, made possible the Concessions that were made….

We were already at war on September 11, 2001. We were at war with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and the others who view the world as they do, a fight to the death between Islamic Republics and Kingdoms and the West.

“I believe there are many who will feel with me that such a declaration, signed by the German Chancellor and myself, is something more than a pious expression of opinion. ”

This is a false view with Islamic Republics and Kingdoms. There is no peace as we understand it with them.

“It is to such tasks–the winning back of confidence, the gradual removal of hostility between nations until they feel that they can safely discard their weapons, one by one, that I would wish to devote what energy and time may be left to me before I hand over my office to younger men.”

Then as now, younger men must fight and die in the millions because we can’t act now. The time to fight is now. They are at war with us, and have been for decades. In fact, since 622 AD.

CLEMENT ATTLEE, HOUSE OF COMMONS, OCTOBER 3, 1938.

“We all feel relief that war has not come this time.”You were at war then, and we already are at war now.

“We have seen today a gallant, civilised and democratic people betrayed and handed over to a ruthless despotism. We have seen something more. We have seen the cause of democracy, which is, in our view, the cause of civilisation and humanity, receive a terrible defeat.”

Old Atlantic: Saigon 1975. The Iraq and Afghan Constitutions making them Islamic Republics. After 9-11, letting Saudi Arabia and Pakistan get away with it.

“The events of these last few days constitute one of the greatest diplomatic defeats that this country and France have ever sustained. There can be no doubt that it is a tremendous victory for Herr Hitler. Without firing a shot, by the mere display of military force, he has achieved a dominating position in Europe which Germany failed to win after four years of war. He has overturned the balance of power in Europe. He has destroyed the last fortress of democracy in Eastern Europe which stood in the way of his ambition. He has opened his way to the food, the oil and the resources which he requires in order to consolidate his military power, and he has successfully defeated and reduced to impotence the forces that might have stood against the rule of violence.”

Old Atlantic: This is exactly what we are doing in the Middle East, for decades. We were doing this in the 1980’s in Pakistan. We let Pakistan do its nuclear test in 1998. We are letting Pakistan put nukes on missiles on subs. There will be a flotilla of them off our coasts. Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iran, North Korea, etc. will have them.

“I want to turn now to the cause of the crisis which we have undergone. The cause was not the existence of minorities in Czechoslovakia; it was not that the position of the Sudeten Germans had become intolerable. It was not the wonderful principle of self-determination. It was because Herr Hitler had decided that the time was ripe for another step forward in his design to dominate Europe. ”

Old Atlantic: That is what is at stake in Iraq and Afghanistan. And why we have to go for the main enemy homelands, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

” It was quite a minor matter, and I fear that the Prime Minister is deceived if he thinks that the cause of this trouble has been the woes of the Sudeten Germans. I say that the question of the Sudeten Germans has been used as a counter in the game of politics, and in other conditions Herr Hitler might just as well have used the people of Memel, the people of South Denmark, the people in the Trentino or the Germans in South Tyrol….”

“the people of South Denmark” “aye there’s the rub”.

“The history of the last seven years is the background of this crisis, and the first point I must make to the Government is this. This crisis did not come unexpectedly. It was obvious to any intelligent student of foreign affairs that this attack would Come.”

Verily I say unto you.”

He doesn’t advocate following but gives it as example of defeatism:

“You had better now make the best terms you can with Germany, enter her political orbit and give her anything to escape before the wrath comes upon you.” Realists then and now. Realists: The Art of the Defeat and Surrender.

“I heard a suggestion from the benches opposite. “What about the U.S.S.R.?” Busy with assassinations then and now. Now they do them in London with nuclear materials.

“When the National Government overthrew the whole policy of collective security and abandoned it and the League, we told this House over and over again that we were entering on a very dangerous course. We realised that we were back in 1914 with all its dangers, and we knew that sooner or later a challenge would come to this country; and that is what has happened. The real pith of it is that, having decided to leave the League system which we practised and in which we believed, and to embark on a policy of alliances and power politics, instead of strengthening the people whose natural interests were with ours, we have had nothing but constant flirtations with this and that dictator. The Prime Minister has been the dupe of the dictators, and I say that to-day we are in a dangerous position.”

Old Atlantic: Seems like then they said they were back in 1914. Now we say we are back in 1938. The more things change, the more our appeasing leaders stay the same.

SIR SAMUEL HOARE, SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT, HOUSE OF COMMONS, OCTOBER 3, 1938.

“….A week ago we were on the verge of a terrible abyss. The Hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton), who has just sat down, seemed to have forgotten the position in which we were then placed. The speech that he has just made seemed to take little account of the fact that a few days ago we were within a hair’s breadth of the greatest catastrophe that the world has ever seen. Did we shrink from it in fear, or did we feel that there was some hope still of finding a path round it to more solid ground? I am fully aware that there are some hon. Members, and some people in the Country, who believe that no peace is possible in Europe as long as the dictatorships exist, who hold, quite sincerely, the view–I think the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down does–that as long as the dictatorships exist, war is inevitable, and that it may be better to have war now, when we have an issue that may be supposed to appeal to the whole world, rather than to put it off to some future date when our position may be more difficult and dangerous. …

The conclusion of such a view is to me so appalling that I could not accept it if I thought there was still some glimmer of hope that the catastrophe might yet be averted.”

Old Atlantic: A seat for him at the Hamilton Kean 9-11 Commission, Baker Hamilton Iraq Study Group, giving nukes to Russia, China, Pakistan, India, etc. This man is obviously a realist.

“The Prime Minister acted not alone as the head of the Government of which I am a member. He acted rather as the spokesman of the millions of men and women from one end of the world to the other who were determined that we should still try to keep a controlling hand upon the course of events and avoid an appalling calamity that would undoubtedly have ended in the extinction of civilisation as we have known it. . .”

How the realists use the fear of war to lead us into greater war and greater defeat.

“extinction of civilisation as we have known it.”

Old Atlantic: That is the self proclaimed goal of Islam from 622 AD to the present. That is the real Islam.

“. I go further, and I say that if we had made an ultimatum in the days immediately before the Nuremberg speech Europe would to-day have been plunged into a world war….”

Old Atlantic: We already are in a world war with the Islamic world.

“The Soviet Ambassador was received again, quite recently, at the Foreign Office, after his return to London. So much for the hon. Member’s question about our attitude towards the Soviet Republic.”

Old Atlantic: Let them sell them nukes. Let them sell them missiles. Let them undermine our negotiations with NoKo and Iran. Let them sell them night vision.

“I say with all deliberation that, when once Germany rearmed and became powerful, and when once the Anschluss took place, the strategic frontier of the republic was turned.”

Old Atlantic: Pakistan nuclear test 1998. North Korea nuclear test 2006. Iran will complete its nuclear cycle development in 2007. It will have 60,000 centrifuges. We are told it won’t be 100,000. We are told it won’t have nukes for 5 years. We are told its too late to do anything about North Korea and Pakistan’s nukes, that we should have done something 5 years ago.

“The Sudeten Germans looked to reunion with the Reich. ”

Old Atlantic: All Muslims in all lands look to be reunited in the Ummah. Muslim lands are the House of Peace. Non-Muslim lands are the House of War.

When the time comes for the verdict to be given upon the Prime Minister’s conduct,

Old Atlantic: That verdict is in. He is guilty of appeasement. Why can’t Bush, Hamilton Kean 9-11 Commission, Baker Hamilton Iraq Study Group see that?
let me tell the right hon. Gentleman that none of us here fears that verdict. I believe that the criticisms to which we have listened in the House to-day very little represent the great body of feeling. I believe the great body of our fellow-citizens not only in this country but in the Dominions and in the whole Empire, are grateful to the Prime Minister for the efforts that he has made. They are grateful to the Prime Minister for having persistently sustained the policy of peace and mediation. They do not take the view that war is inevitable. They believe that under his wise guidance we may succeed in creating a new Europe in which men and women can go about their business in peace and security.”
Old Atlantic: We already are at war. We already are being subjected to defeat by immigration. We are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan instead of island hopping to the main enemy homelands, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. We are letting them have nukes. They will be on missiles on subs off our coasts. They are going to use them on us, because they believe in Unilateral Assured Jihad, not Mutual Assured Destruction. The only destruction they assure is ours.

WINSTON CHURCHILL, HOUSE OF COMMONS, OCTOBER 5, 1938.

“Having thus fortified myself by the example of others, I will proceed to emulate them. I will, therefore, begin by saying the most unpopular and most unwelcome thing. I will begin by saying what everybody would like to ignore or forget but which must nevertheless be stated, namely, that we have sustained a total and unmitigated defeat, and that France has suffered even more than we have.

VISCOUNTESS ASTOR: Nonsense.

MR. CHURCHILL: When the Noble Lady cries “Nonsense,” she could not have heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer [Sir John Simon] admit in his illuminating and comprehensive speech just now that Herr Hitler had gained in this particular leap forward in substance all he set out to gain. The utmost my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has been able to secure by all his immense exertions, by all the great efforts and mobilisation which took place in this country, and by all the anguish and strain through which we have passed in this country, the utmost he has been able to gain–[HON. MEMBERS: “Is peace.”]. I thought I might be allowed to make that point in its due place, and I propose to deal with it. The utmost he has been able to gain for Czechoslovakia and in the matters which were in dispute has been that the German dictator, instead of snatching his victuals from the table, has been content to have them served to him course by course.”

Old Atlantic: “Course by Course”. That is the fallacy of thinking of Iraq and Afghanistan as separate wars. Just like thinking ofCzechoslovakia by itself was a fallacy in 1938.

“We really must not waste time, after all this long Debate, upon the difference between the positions reached at Berchtesgaden, at Godesberg and at Munich. They can be very simply epitomised, if the House will permit me to vary the metaphor. £1 was demanded at the pistol’s point. When it was given, £2 were demanded at the pistol’s point. Finally, the dictator consented to take £1 17s. 6d. and the rest in promises of good will for the future.”

Old Atlantic: This is what realists always say, they got the best deal that could be had. The best deal that can be had is a nuclear North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, UAE, etc. with subs off our coasts.

“There never can be any absolute certainty that there will be a fight if one side is determined that it will give way completely.”

Old Atlantic: Hamilton Kean after 9-11 attack by Saudi Arabia and Pakistan support, Baker Hamilton in the face of Iran’s nuclear program. They want to give up our bases in Iraq that we need for a ground invasion of Iran. Our soldiers must fight for the same ground twice, but under worse conditions.

“All is over. Silent, mournful, abandoned, broken, Czechoslovakia recedes into the darkness. . . . No one has a right to say that the plebiscite which is to be taken in areas under Saar conditions, and the clean-cut of the 50 per cent. areas-that those two operations together amount in the slightest degree to a verdict of self-determination. It is a fraud and a farce to invoke that name….”

We are in the presence of a disaster of the first magnitude which has befallen Great Britain and France. Do not let us blind ourselves to that. It must now be accepted that all the countries of Central and Eastern Europe will make the best terms they can with the triumphant Nazi Power. The system of alliances in Central Europe upon which France has relied for her safety has been swept away, and I can see no means by which it can be reconstituted. The road down the Danube Valley to the Black Sea, the resources of corn and oil, the road which leads as far as Turkey, has been opened. In fact, if not in form, it seems to me that all those countries of Middle Europe, all those Danubian countries, will, one after another, be drawn into this vast system of power politics–not only power military politics but power economic politics–radiating from Berlin, and I believe this can be achieved quite smoothly and swiftly and will not necessarily entail the firing of a single shot. If you wish to survey the havoc of the foreign policy of Britain and France, look at what is happening and is recorded each day in the columns of the “Times…

We are talking about countries which are a long way off and of which, as the Prime Minister might say, we know nothing. [Interruption.] The noble Lady says that that very harmless allusion is–

VISCOUNTESS ASTOR: Rude.

MR. CHURCHILL: She must very recently have been receiving her finishing course in manners. What will be the position, I want to know, of France and England this year and the year afterwards? What will be the position of that Western front of which we are in full authority the guarantors? The German army at the present time is more numerous than that of France, though not nearly so matured or perfected. Next year it will grow much larger, and its maturity will be more complete.

(Old Atlantic: Russia and China arm Iran and Syria. North Korea and Iran develop nukes. Pakistan has a new nuclear reactor under way to build hundreds of smaller nukes that will fit on missiles on subs. They have a subyard the French built for them.)

Relieved from all anxiety in the East, and having secured resources which will greatly diminish, if not entirely remove, the deterrent of a naval blockade, the rulers of Nazi Germany will have a free choice open to them in what direction they will turn their eyes. If the Nazi dictator should choose to look westward, as he may, bitterly will France and England regret the loss of that fine army of ancient Bohemia which Was estimated last week to require not fewer than 30 German divisions for its destruction.

Can we blind ourselves to the great change which has taken place in the military situation, and to the dangers we have to meet?.

(Old Atlantic: Yes then, Yes now. There are always realists for that job.)
This is only the beginning of the reckoning. This is only the first sip, the first foretaste of a bitter cup which will be proffered to us year by year unless by a supreme recovery of moral health and martial vigour, we arise again and take our stand for freedom as in the olden time.”

PRIME MINISTER CHAMBERLAIN, HOUSE OF COMMONS, OCTOBER 5, 1938

As regards future policy, it seems to me that there are really only two possible alternatives. One of them is to base yourself upon the view that any sort of friendly relation, or possible relations, shall I say, with totalitarian States are impossible, that the assurances which have been given to me personally are worthless, that they have sinister designs and that they are bent upon the domination of Europe and the gradual destruction of democracies. Of course, on that hypothesis, war has got to come, and that is the view–a perfectly intelligible view–of a certain number of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen in this House….

If that is hon. Members’ conviction, there is no future hope for civilisation or for any of the things that make life worth living. Does the experience of the Great War and of the years that followed it give us reasonable hope that if some new war started that would end war any more than the last one did? No. I do not believe that war is inevitable. Someone put into my hand a remark made by the great Pitt about 1787, when he said:

    • To suppose that any nation can be unalterably the enemy of another is weak and childish and has its foundations neither in the experience of nations not in the history of man.

(Old Atlantic: The war with Buonaparte lasted until 1815 and he crowned himself Emperor along the way. Ahmadinejad is close to crowing himself the 12th Imam or perhaps the Mahdi.)

It seems to me that the strongest argument against the inevitability of war is to be found in something that everyone has recognized in every part of the House. That is the universal aversion from war of the people, their hatred of the notion of starting to kill one another again…. (Old Atlantic: Iran and Saudi Arabia use suicide bombers. Intifada is a method of war for them. 9-11 was a method of war.)

What is the alternative to this bleak and barren policy of the inevitability of war? In my view it is that we should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analysing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will. I cannot believe that such a programme would be rejected by the people of this country, even if it does mean the establishment of personal contact with dictators, and of talks man to man on the basis that each, while maintaining his own ideas of the internal government of his country, is willing to allow that other systems may suit better other peoples. The party opposite surely have the same idea in mind even if they put it in a different way.

(Old Atlantic: They want our destruction. They wanted it then and now. So does China.)

They want a world conference. Well, I have had some experiences of conferences, and one thing I do feel certain of is that it better to have no conference at all than a conference which is a failure.

(A surrender is a failure. Duping yourself is a failure.)

The corollary to that is that before you enter a conference you must have laid out very clearly the lines on which you are going to proceed, if you are at least to have in front of you’re a reasonable prospect that you may obtain success. I am not saying that a conference would not have its place in due course. But I say it is no use to call a conference of the world, including these totalitarian Powers, until you are sure they are going to attend, and not only that they are going to attend, but that they are going to attend with the intention of aiding you in the policy on which you have set your heart.

(Old Atlantic: Iran has made that clear: our destruction. Saudi Arabia made that clear in financing terror: our destruction. Pakistan has made that clear: building the Muslim atomic bomb, a term they invented for it.)

I am told that the policy which I have tried to describe is inconsistent with the continuance, and much more inconsistent with the acceleration of our present programme of arms.

(Old Atlantic: Clinton reduced the military from 1991 levels. In 1988 Bush Sr. made his no new taxes pledge but broke it and lost the 1992 election. He had to break it, we were at war. But Clinton reduced the military, realizing that Bush Sr had lost in 1992 because he kept the funds we needed for defense. Bush Jr. after 9-11 didn’t rebuild the military to 1991 levels and beyond. Instead he was mindful of his father’s defeat in 1992 and his own tax cut pledge and didn’t rebuild the military after 9-11. We have had over 14 years of betrayal this time. )

I am asked how I can reconcile an appeal to the country to support the continuance of this programme with the words which I used when I came back from Munich the other day and spoke of my belief that we might have peace in our time. I hope hon. Members will not be disposed to read into words used in a moment of some emotion, after a long and exhausting day, after I had driven through miles of excited, enthusiastic, cheering people–I hope they will not read into those words more than they were intended to convey.

(Old Atlantic: What were they intended to convey, except what he really thought?)

I do indeed believe that we may yet secure peace for our time, but I never meant to suggest that we should do that by disarmament, until we can induce others to disarm too.

(Old Atlantic: We don’t let Iran and North Korea get nukes while we talk peace.)

Our past experience has shown us only too clearly that weakness in armed strength means weakness in diplomacy,

(We didn’t rearm after 9-11, so Iran and North Korea and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia ignore us now.)

and if we want to secure a lasting peace, I realise that diplomacy cannot be effective unless the Consciousness exists, not here alone, but elsewhere, that behind the diplomacy is the strength to give effect ……..

I cannot help feeling that if, after all, war had come upon us, the people of this Country would have lost their spiritual faith altogether.

(Old Atlantic: This is what the Hamilton Kean 9-11 Commission felt. They lied about Saudi Arabia and Pakistan’s links to 9-11. This is what the Baker Hamilton Commission think. The reason they think this is because at bottom they despise us.)

As it turned out the other way, I think we have all seen something like a new spiritual revival,

(Old Atlantic: Actually they were already at war with the totalitarians, they just couldn’t admit it. They duped themselves.)

and I know that everywhere there is a strong desire among the people to record their readiness to serve their Country, where-ever or however their services could be most useful. I would like to take advantage of that strong feeling if it is possible, and although I must frankly say that at this moment I do not myself clearly see my way to any particular scheme, yet I want also to say that I am ready to consider any suggestion that may be made to me, in a very sympathetic spirit.

(Ground invasion of Iran. Abolish religious courts, law, police, dress, and call to prayers. Retire the judges. Surround Pakistan and make them denuke, desub, demissile, deLaden and do the same. Abolish the Islamic Republics of Afghanistan and Iraq and fight for our values. If Saudi Arabia does the same, they can avoid occupation. Strike at North Korea now and hit their missiles, naval yards, nuclear plants, airpower, etc. Stop Chinese and Indian grad students in physics coming here and getting our stealth and night vision tech and selling it to the insurgents. Start inspecting containers from China until the ships stack up across the Pacific. Be loyal to the American people. Stop immigration, all of it. You don’t teach others our technology in time of war, you teach our own young people. You don’t give them our high tech to use against our troops. That isn’t supporting our troops, its betraying them. Even Chamberlin didn’t do that in 1938.)

Finally, I would like to repeat what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said yesterday in his great speech. Our policy of appeasement

(Old Atlantic: After 9-11, we had a policy of appeasement of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. We hoped they would stop supporting the terrorism that attacked us. In fact, Pakistan says admit the Taliban have won. In fact, Saudi Arabia is funding the insurgencies in Afghanistan and Iraq. In fact, Iran is building nukes with support from Russia and China. In fact, we gave our nuclear technology to India, which immediately sold it to China.)

does not mean that we are going to seek new friends at the expense of old ones, or, in-deed, at the expense of any other nations at all. I do not think that at any time there has been a more complete identity of views between the French Government and ourselves than there is at the present time. Their objective is the same as ours–to obtain the collaboration of all nations, not excluding the totalitarian States, in building up a lasting peace for Europe. That seems to me to be a policy which would answer my hon. Friends’ appeal, a policy which should command the support of all who believe in the power of human will to control human destiny. If we cannot here this afternoon emulate the patriotic unanimity of the French Chamber, this House can by a decisive majority show its approval of the Government’s determination to pursue it.

[The vote which followed supported the government 369 to 150.]


Source: Munich: Blunder, Plot, or Tragic Necessity? edited with and introduction by Dwight E. Lee (Lexington, MA; D.C. Heath and Company, 1970), pp. 1-12 This article represents hypotheses, speculation or opinion. All other disclaimers apply.

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re “Already Too Busy for Civility”

November 30, 2006

“Jim Webb, Democratic senator-elect from Virginia, has become a pompous poseur and an abuser of the English language before actually becoming a senator.”

Will is saying Webb is a poseur because Webb says he is for people. Webb wants to stop all guest worker. This includes H1B. Immigration harms young adults by taking away their job security. Without that they can’t get married, have kids and stay married.

Without that, our society loses purpose and meaning. That is precisely what people compalin of. Teens see they have no future and commit meaningless violence.

George Will is the pompous poseur. He is halfway in the K-Street door of the RINO elite that is for big immigration and considers Americans bigots for wanting to end it, all of it legal or illegal.

Will supports amnesty (admittedly Webb does too)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/29/AR2006032902004.html

Will supports unlimited H1B’s.

“Conservatives should favor a policy of encouraging unlimited immigration by educated people with math, engineering, technology or science skills that America’s education system is not sufficiently supplying.”

See also for a pro Will perspective:
http://carryonamerica.com/?p=134

Will, Fred Barnes, Bill Kristol, and Paul Gigot do not support the more stringent Tancredo approach and Kristol even calls his approach “liberal.” More and more of the conservative pundits, minus Pat Buchanan, seem to favor this type of pragmatic approach.”

Some comments on Daily Kos about Will and Immigration

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/11/22/105650/65

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2006/11/22/105650/65/24#c24

In today’s world, an economist is someone who can prove definitively that you have no right to have a job, or medical insurance, and that your job not only SHOULD be shipped to India, but an economically reasonable person would be EAGER to see their job off-shored.

That’s George Will. He is sitting there telling the rest of us that we have no rights to jobs, and that economic rationality means that all our jobs will soon go to China, and that we should be pleased with this.

by centerdem on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 08:48:47 AM PST”

=== Comments from WaPo

Why doesn’t George Will just say he is for MSM government of the elite by the elite for the elite. He is condemnding Webb, lest government of the elite should perish from Washington D.C., WaPo and the rest of the MSM. I am surprised he didn’t attack Lou Dobbs and Tom Tancredo while he was at it.

Or maybe its government of the people by the elite for the elite.

Or government of the people by the prissy George Will for the elites.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/comments/display?contentID=AR2006112901267&start=621

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 1:05:44 PM

“quote In todays world, an economist is someone who can prove definitively that you have no right to have a job, or medical insurance, and that your job not only SHOULD be shipped to India, but an economically reasonable person would be EAGER to see their job off-shored. Thats George Will. He is sitting there telling the rest of us that we have no rights to jobs, and that economic rationality means that all our jobs will soon go to China, and that we should be pleased with this. by centerdem on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 08:48:47 AM PST dailykos 2006 endquote

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 9:14:39 AM”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/comments/display?contentID=AR2006112901267&start=221

“You can’t be on good terms with Bush. Bush is against us and
against reason. Bush is on the side of the Baker Botts Bush family. Bush chose Prince Bandar after 9-11. He chose to be against America and cover up the Saudi Pakistan financed attack on America.

Most of above on page 12 or 13.

quote WOW! Will must have hit a left nerve! Webb isnt so much a boor as he is just plain arrogant and obviously not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Webb had an opportunity to form a civil working relationship with Bush and he threw that opportunity away. He effectively made himself politically invisible to the White House and certainly useless to Virginia. And to think he achieved that even before taking office! Way to go, Webb! By JackESpratt | Nov 30, 2006 9:09:49 AM end quote. You cant be on good terms with Bush. Bush is against us and against reason. Bush is on the side of the Baker Botts Bush family. Bush chose Prince Bandar after 9-11. He chose to be against America and cover up the Saudi Pakistan financed attack on America.

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 1:11:51 PM |

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/comments/display?contentID=AR2006112901267&start=641

page 33.

How far does the Post system run in numbering pages? It looks like its at the limit? If we reach the limit will Bush and the lobbyist bought Congress and their MSM flacks like Will all resign? At least will Will resign?

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 1:14:13 PM
Page 42, start =821

quote If anyone is an expert on pompous and being a poseur, its you, will. By pssixsix | Nov 30, 2006 2:37:07 PM end quote. That is the truth. Will is also an expert on toadying to power. Will knows how to keep down the people, he attacks the politicians elected to speak for them at his first chance. This was a calculated attack. Will was looking for his opening. Jim Webb ran as in effect the only Senator willing to speak up against guest worker, H1B, and the rest of the lies that Will spews out for his corporate paycheck.

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 2:39:47 PM

page 44, start = 861

George Will is an anti-American bigot. You can hear it when he and the elite talk about immigration. They call us lazy and stupid. quote “Conservatives should favor a policy of encouraging unlimited immigration by educated people with math, engineering, technology or science skills that America’s education system is not sufficiently supplying.” end quote. That is from George Will. Translation: Americans are too dumb and lazy to learn math. This is anti-American bigotry. That is common to the elite. Biden, Kennedy, McCain, etc. constantly say Americans are too dumb and lazy to learn math.

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 3:06:12 PM
The elite have a culture of hatred of Americans and express it openly. When they say Americans are too stupid for math and science, that is expressing their hatred of Americans.
By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 3:09:23 PM

Page 60
Jim Webb wants to end all guest worker programs. Will wants unlimited guest worker in all technical fields. Will thinks Americans are too dumb or lazy to do these jobs. Will wants to take away job security from young adults. If they can’t have job security, they can’t stay married after they have kids. Because they can’t stay married after they have kids, they won’t have kids. Because they won’t have kids, they won’t get married. Because they won’t get married, they don’t have to be paid well or get benefits. This is the elite mentality. Will is a spokesperson for the CEO’s. Webb is exposing that. This was a predesigned hit job. If not this, Will would have used something else for his hit job on Webb.

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 6:32:29 PM

Page 66
George Will: Pharoanic Pompous Poseur Pedant Peurile Pentagonic Porous Photodegenerate Fallacious Fount of Phosphoric Fury Fibrillating Fantasy of Ferrous Foxlike Fabulous Phoenix Faux Fumes of Philly Foulness Fabricating Photovoltaic Fibers Foully Finking Fibbing Fishmongering Foulmouthing Files From Pools of Frogs Foulest Frothing Fiends Fool Fruity Forked Faust.

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 8:38:33 PM

Page 66

“Obviously somebody`s orchestrating these flames. Pathetic.

By zjr78xva | Nov 30, 2006 8:52:17 PM”

Or did George Will touch some real resentment of the disloyal elite, of which he is the most egregious example?

Page 67, start = 1321

George Will wants to concentrate on the topic of rudeness, not loyalty to Americans. Saying George Will and George Bush arent loyal to Americans on guest worker is rude. Saying they are loyal only to their own in group is rude and crude. Webb is about displacing them. This is the sound of the George Will MSM being displaced from its throne to mock us for wanting job, physical, and speech security. We want to be heard, and George Will doesnt want us to be heard. Jim Webb speaks for Americans kept down and put down by George Will and George Bush for decades.

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 9:18:07 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/comments/display?contentID=AR2006112901267&start=1321

Page 69, start=1361

quote destruction of the middle class end quote.gaburdman | Nov 30, 2006 9:40:10 PM. That is exactly right. George Will and his cohorts on ABC have chortled over the decline of those they went to high school with or their children or grand children. They exult in their status. They have no loyalty at all to where they come from or who they come from. George Will personifies that above all others.

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 9:45:43 PM

Page 69, start = 1361
George Will you are a Benedict Arnold to the American middle class. So is the MSM including the ABC team. So is George Bush. You took the side of Saudi Arabia. You took the side of what attacked us. You have covered up the 27 pages that Congress couldn’t publish.

quote Saudi Government Provided Aid to 9/11 Hijackers, Sources Say
By Josh Meyer
The Los Angeles Times

Saturday 02 August 2003

WASHINGTON – The 27 classified pages of a congressional report about Sept. 11 depict a Saudi government that not only provided significant money and aid to the suicide hijackers but also allowed potentially hundreds of millions of dollars to flow to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups through suspect charities and other fronts, according to sources familiar with the document.

One U.S. official who has read the classified section said it describes “very direct, very specific links” between Saudi officials, two of the San Diego-based hijackers and other potential co-conspirators “that cannot be passed off as rogue, isolated or coincidental.”

Said another official: “It’s really damning. What it says is that not only Saudi entities or nationals are implicated in 9/11, but the [Saudi] government” as well. end quote.

You and George Bush have betrayed the people of this country for your personal profit.

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 9:52:36 PM

Page 69, start= 1361
WP EDITORS, also apologize to the American middle class for betraying it for the last 40 years since the 1965 Immigration Act. You can apologize for calling us bigots while you take away our job security. You can apologize to young adults who can’t get married, have kids and stay married because you have taken their job security for yourselves. George Bush can do the same. You can apologize for letting Pakistan keep its nukes after 9-11, while we wasted our lives in Iraq that has no nukes. You can apologize for our wasting our lives in Iraq instead of stopping North Korea from getting nukes. The American people do want to stop these dangerous regimes from getting nukes. George Bush betrayed us in Iraq.

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 10:09:09 PM

Page 69, 1361

Request George Wills Removal

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 10:12:16 PM

Page 70, start = 1381

quote “infinitely richer” end quote. This has over 40,000 hits in google. So its an acceptable figure of speech.

Dictionary com tells us one meaning is unbounded. If we plot the ratio of George Will’s pay to that of the median worker it continues to rise. If this process continued through time, it would be unbounded.

Webb’s comment was quote America’s top tier has grown infinitely richer and more removed over the past 25 years. end quote.

So as a process in time, it does appear unbounded. This ratio has increased without hitting the upper bound of our patience, yet.

You keep getting away with more immigration to keep us afraid. You take our job, education, physical and speech security from us.

We have to speak up anyhow. You and the rest of the MSM are surpised each time it happens. Lou Dobbs and Tom Tancredo and Jim Webb are something you dismiss, but the people don’t. They speak up for us.That’s what you hate, because in the end, its us that you have disdain and contempt for, not just Webb.

You are telling Webb, be quiet, take the money, and get along. Sell them out. Take Saudi money like Jim Baker. Take oil pipeline money like Baker Botts. Take it. Forget them.

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 10:31:49 PM
Men’s median wages are below what they were in 1973. But George Will’s, George Bush’s, and Baker Botts are not.

Page 71, start=1401

quote America’s top tier has grown infinitely richer and more removed over the past 25 years. end quote. Men’s median wages are no higher than in 1973. But George Will’s, George Bush’s, and Baker Botts are not. Could it be that Webb threatens the upward line of your compensation Mr. Will? If Webb sits down, is quiet and takes money, then your wages keep going up? Webb threatens your pocket book. For that you speak up. You want to keep us down, so your corporate masters will pay you more.

Page 71, start=1401

quote The United States has asked for and received extraordinary help from Pakistan in the war on terrorism. end quote. From George Will, search George Will Pakistan.

quote Alabama and one in North Carolina, have significant numbers of textile workers. end quote

Whose jobs you want to give to Pakistan. What did Pakistan do for us in the war on terror? It may have helped finance 9-11. Now it supports the Taliban against our troops.

quote made short shrift of the Taliban end quote.

Not quite George. The Taliban is back, with the help of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.Those are your and George Bush’s allies against the American people.

Why do you speak up for countries that helped attack us on 9-11 and now support the insurgencies against our troops?

Why do you support unlimited H1B so that China can get our night vision and use it against our troops?

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 10:49:52 PM

Page 71, start=1401

quote “Conservatives should favor a policy of encouraging unlimited immigration by educated people with math, engineering, technology or science skills that America’s education system is not sufficiently supplying.” end quote. From an earlier George Will column.

Search on Chinese night vision. China got our night vision and sells it to Pakistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia who supply it to the insurgents to use on our troops.

How do we save money to have our troops killed or maimed by our own night vision technology? Why do you have no loyalty to our troops? Jim Webb does. He wants our night vision technology and other advantages kept here, not given to George Bush allies like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to give to the insurgents to use against our troops.

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 10:56:26 PM

Page 71, start=1401


Search on Indian stealth Noshir Gowadia. He was born in India and sold our stealth technology to China. How does that save us money? After George Bush finalized the India Nuclear Deal, India did a deal with China. What do you know about India, China, etc. having kompromat on George Bush?

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 11:01:57 PM

Page 71, start=1401
The real reason you hate James Webb, is that Webb is loyal to America and our troops, and George Bush and George Will aren’t. They use these as slogans but lie. They are both as disloyal to our troops as to our middle class.

They sell out our night vision and stealth technology to China as they sell out education opportunities in math and science at our own universities and our jobs in those fields. Those are supposed to be the high pay high benefit jobs.

We are supposed to sacrifice to get education for them, and then you take them from us and give them to people from India and China. Then they sell weapons based on that tech to Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan that supply them to the insurgents to use on our troops. They and we are killed and maimed.

You say it saves money. It only saves you money and those you answer to, the Baker Botts law firms, lobbyists and big money interests that pay you and George Bush. Webb isn’t taking the money to be quiet, so you attack him on flimsy grounds.

By OldAtlantic | Nov 30, 2006 11:07:41 PM

Page 76, start=1501

quote and even the conservative columnist George Will notes in the Washington Post, quote It is not fantasy that there have been many reports that the then-head of Pakistani intelligence was responsible for $100,000 being wired to Mohamed Atta, the lead 9/11 hijacker. end quote [Washington Post, 10/5/2003] end quote. from Cooperativeresearch. How can George Will be supporting George Bush in 2006 against Jim Webb, when he himself has pointed out in 2003 that Bush betrayed us on Pakistan? What does Will know about the relationship between Pakistan and George Bush? Why did George Will not oppose George Bush in 2004 because Bush covered up the Pakistan and Saudi Arabia role in financing 9-11, and in supporting and financing the insurgencies in Afghanistan and Iraq?

By OldAtlantic | Dec 1, 2006 7:11:22 AM

Page 77, start=1521

quote These pols play on the fantasies of mildly delusional voters. end quote from R. Emmett Tyrrell Jr., Unpleasant People’s Party, in Wash Times today.

So James Webb is hit from both barrels of the Washington establishment. They can’t stand a Senator who tells the truth.

quote mildly delusional voters end quote. Men’s real wages are below what they were in 1973. CEO and George Will wages are up.

Since 9-11, the price of oil has gone from about 25 dollars a barrel to over 60. So Saudi Princes income is up. Prince Bandar and Prince al Turki have done well with the Bush post 9-11 policy of blame Saddam.

But the American middle class is left behind. We need job security for young adults so they can get married, have kids and stay married. That means no immigration, no guest worker. That isn’t a delusion, its reality.

By OldAtlantic | Dec 1, 2006 8:54:07 AM
A better tack on immigration

By R. Emmett Tyrrell Jr.
December 2, 2005

“There is a market for immigrants in this country. The president is more cognizant of this than those who would restrict immigration. But consider the market for a minute: (1) producers need immigrants; (2) Immigrants come because there is work that enriches them. This market has helped the economy. It is growing robustly and without unemployment, one of the feared downsides of immigration or even illegal immigration. We are almost at full employment, and with 2 to 3 times as many illegal immigrants in the country as in the mid-1980s, when former Sen. Alan Simpson, Wyoming Republican, last addressed the immigration issue. That pretty much proves the economy can accept immigration and prosper.”

So Tyrrel is a big immigrationist, just like George Will. Both want to take away job security from young adults, thus depriving them of the essential security to get married, have kids and stay married.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Tyrrell

search R. Emmett Tyrell “immigration”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Spectator

The American Spectator is a conservative U.S. monthly magazine covering news and politics, edited by R. Emmett Tyrrell Jr. and published by the non-profit American Spectator Foundation.”

“From its founding in 1967 until the late 1980s, the small-circulation magazine featured the writings of authors such as Thomas Sowell, Tom Wolfe, P.J. O’Rourke, George F. Will, Patrick J. Buchanan, Alex Linder and Malcolm Muggeridge,”
search American Spectator “George Will” 146,000 hits

So Tyrrell in the Washington Times is rushing to the defense of George Will against the reader response at Washington Post.

Page 78, start=1541

Comment in Post:

Unpleasant people’s party?

By R. Emmett Tyrrell Jr.
December 1, 2006 This is another attack piece on Webb. This may be a response to yesterday’s reader response to George Will. Tyrrell published George Will in his American Spectator. Tyrrell like Will supports big immigration and guest worker.
quote There is a market for immigrants in this country. The president is more cognizant of this than those who would restrict immigration. But consider the market for a minute: (1) producers need immigrants; (2) Immigrants come because there is work that enriches them. This market has helped the economy. It is growing robustly and without unemployment, one of the feared downsides of immigration or even illegal immigration. We are almost at full employment, and with 2 to 3 times as many illegal immigrants in the country as in the mid-1980s, when former Sen. Alan Simpson, Wyoming Republican, last addressed the immigration issue. That pretty much proves the economy can accept immigration and prosper. end quote.

From “A better tack on immigration”

By R. Emmett Tyrrell Jr.
December 2, 2005 Washington Times.

Also at American Spectator

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=10692

Tyrrell is part of the Washington big immigration establishment. Unemployment is low, but median wages for men are below what they were in 1973.

Tyrrell is pushing immigration for employers. Tyrrell is pushing down our wages and our benefits.

Young adults need job security. They need jobs with good wages and benefits. They need job security to get married, have kids and stay married.

They look forward and work backwards. They may not stay married with kids without a good job, especially for the man. Men’s wages are below what they were in 1973.

They won’t have kids if they are married if they don’t think they will have job security and stay married. So they don’t have kids while married.

Because they have figured out they won’t have kids if they get married, they don’t get married. So the lack of job security works its way backwards in their decision tree.

They can’t be sure they will stay married after having kids, so they don’t have kids while married. They forecast that, so they don’t get married.

Teenagers then see that they have no near term prospects of settling down. That takes away meaning from their lives. Their biological clock tells them to have kids as teens. But they see that men of all ages are losing good jobs and not getting new jobs with good wages, benefits, job security, and workplace dignity.

So teens go wilding without the prospect of entering a stable adult world as workers and parents. This undermines the entire stability of society. The result is crime. Teen crime shoots up. This is what happened after the 1965 Immigration Act. Congress created a crime wave. We are living in it still.

Page 79, start=1561

Will quote “Conservatives should favor a policy of encouraging unlimited immigration by educated people with math, engineering, technology or science skills that America’s education system is not sufficiently supplying.” end quote.

Tyrrell quote There is a market for immigrants in this country. end quote.
Tyrrell and Will have supported Chinese and Indian grad students and H1B’s coming to America. They have gained our night vision tech and produce it in China and India and sell it to Pakistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia. They supply it to the insurgents to use against our troops. Tyrrell and Will have supported this know-how transfer and championed it.

Christians in Virginia and Indiana won’t listen to the left attack Tyrrell and Will. But they will listen to Webb. Webb is an authentic American hero. When he tells Christians in Virginia and Indiana that Tyrrell and Wil have given our night vision to Chinese grad students and now its
in the hands of insurgents who use it to kill and maim our troops, those Christians will listen.

That is why Tyrrell and Will fear Webb. Tyrrell and Will are not loyal to Americans. They are not loyal to the Christians in Indiana and Virginia who listen to them. Webb is someone those Christians will listen to and learn the truth that Tyrrell and Will have put our night vision in the hands of insurgents who kill and maim our troops.

They are being paid off by the Washington establishment and ultimately law firms and think tanks acting for China. Tyrrell and Will don’t want Christians in Virginia and Indiana to hear this from Webb. Neither do George Bush or John McCain.

By OldAtlantic | Dec 1, 2006 10:53:03 AM

Page 80, start=1581

Two links from American Spectator website:

Tax Havens
Offshore Banking

Spectator is published by Tyrrell who has published Will articles in it. They are defending each other together. Jim Webb is against Tax Havens and Offshore Banking and the Washingont pundits who pretend to be for people but are really linked to this. This is another reason they don’t want Webb exposing them. Webb won’t just take money and be quiet. They want Webb to take the Washington money and pretend to be for people, like them. They want Webb to let China get our night vision and pretend to support our troops, like them. They want guest workers and grad students to take away our know-how and job security and pretend to be for the middle class, like them.

By OldAtlantic | Dec 1, 2006 11:02:41 AM

Page 83, 1641

quote

Do you think there is even a chance that George Will or any of the editors or WaPo are reading these comments to see how far off base they are with average Americans? Naw. That would imply that they care what we think when it is clear that they only like what is said in their little echo chamber. WaPo and mainstream news are headed the way of the dinasaur because they refuse to listen.
By Krotten1 | Dec 1, 2006 12:04:29 PM end quote.

You are right. They are saying we are disgruntled rodents. That is why they keep pushing guest worker, H1B, no Americans in physics and math Ph.D. programs, but 100,000 dollar fellowships for Chinese and Indians.

That is why they let China sell our night vision to Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to supply to the insurgents to use against our troops, to kill them and maim them. They don’t talk to our troops very often. Why?

By OldAtlantic | Dec 1, 2006 12:27:22 PM
—–

page 83, start=1641

Will and MSM including ABC harm us by immigration. They have taken our job security. They prevent young adults getting married, having kids and staying married by taking their job security. They hate us because they have hurt us.

They can’t recognize our opinions as valid. They have to character assassinate us.

That is why they are attacking Webb. Webb speaks for our job security. They can’t stand to hear it. Webb is a hero. They have to degrade Webb in the same way they have degraded us.

quote Do you think there is even a chance that George Will or any of the editors or WaPo are reading these comments to see how far off base they are with average Americans? Naw. That would imply that they care what we think when it is clear that they only like what is said in their little echo chamber. WaPo and mainstream news are headed the way of the dinasaur because they refuse to listen. By Krotten1 | Dec 1, 2006 12:04:29 PM end quote.

By OldAtlantic | Dec 1, 2006 12:33:30 PM

page 89, start=1761

Will wants to damage the character of Webb. Will was looking for something. So was Tyrrell. They are fuax conservatives.

They have gone along with giving our high tech night vision to China and India through grad students, profs, and H1B’s. That night vision goes to Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and then to the insurgents.

Will and Tyrrell know that Webb is against this. They don’t want him exposing them as not supporting our troops. This is a preemptive attack.

By OldAtlantic | Dec 1, 2006 6:03:09 PM

page 91, start=1801

The larger point is that Webb won’t be bought and will tell the truth. Webb can tell that Washington pundits are bought or at least rented on many issues. Or they sell themselves out on their own. These right wing pundits say they support our troops while they give our night vision to China through H1B, grad students, etc. That ends up with the insurgents who kill and maim our troops. That doesn’t save money. They take our educational opportunities in math and physics, our job security, our wages, our benefits, our careers, and then our technology ends up maiming and killing our troops. Webb is willing to tell this truth. He isn’t part of the immigration industrial complex. He isn’t part of the George Will spin complex. They are launching a pre-emptive attack. They were looking for something.

By OldAtlantic | Dec 1, 2006 9:00:38 PM

Page 92, start=1821

When will Will ever learn, he’s what Webb has to warn us of.

By OldAtlantic | Dec 1, 2006 10:23:42 PM

Page 95, start=1881

George Will “Conservatives should favor a policy of encouraging unlimited immigration by educated people with math, engineering, technology or science skills that America’s education system is not sufficiently supplying.”

Thursday, March 30, 2006; Page A23.

China’s Secret War
By Patrick Devenny
FrontPageMagazine.com | March 31, 2005

FBI Assistant Director Dan Szady:

“3,000 Chinese front companies that presently operate within the US. The main purpose of these pseudo-businesses, he said, is to facilitate often-illegal technology transfers to the Chinese government.”

This was in March 31, 2005, but Will in 2006 is still advocating that math and science at the Ph.D level be taught to Chinese and not Americans.

Webb has the opposite view. Will doesn’t want people who will listen to Webb to hear Webb expose Will’s continuing betrayal of our country.

By OldAtlantic | Dec 2, 2006 8:58:12 AM

Will supports quote unlimited immigration by educated people with math, engineering, technology or science skills end quote.

More from Chinas Secret War By Patrick Devenny FrontPageMagazine.com | March 31, 2005. quote At Beijing�s behest, Shih shipped cutting edge night vision technology to Chinese technical research centers, such as the North China Research Institute, which are closely linked to the PRC military. … But the damage had been done. Almost single-handedly, Shih destroyed America�s advantage in night optic technology�a critical component of our continuing dominance on the battlefield. end quote

This night vision is then sold to Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc. who supply it to the insurgents to use against our troops. What about supporting our troops? Webb does by stopping this. Will doesn’t by making it happen. That’s why Will wants to discredit and silence Webb.

By OldAtlantic | Dec 2, 2006 9:38:20 AM

Page 97, start=1921

Will wants to be thought of as conservative and loyal to America. Webb upstages him on that. This is why Will attacks Webb.

George Will quote Conservatives should favor a policy of encouraging unlimited immigration by educated people with math, engineering, technology or science skills that America’s education system is not sufficiently supplying. end quote.

Bill Gertz Wash imes re stealth tech stolen by China quote
Details of the classified defense technology related to the B-2’s engine exhaust system and its ability to avoid detection by infrared sensors were sold to Chinese officials by former defense contractor Noshir S. Gowadia, an Indian-born citizen charged with spying in a federal indictment released by prosecutors in Hawaii. end quote.

Webb is against the H1B program that made this possible. George Will is for it. Will can’t let middle Americans hear this from Webb. Will is preemptively discrediting Webb to avoid Webb pointing out that Will’s disloyalty (and bigotry) to the middle class is responsible for this.

FBI on Gowadia

Wash Times Editorial

search “Noshir Gowadia

By OldAtlantic | Dec 2, 2006 4:09:27 PM

page 97, start=1921

quote deranged Bush hating fanaticism end quote. Bush wouldnt let the 27 pages of the 2003 Congressional report be published.

Saudi Government Provided Aid to 9/11 Hijackers, Sources Say
By Josh Meyer
The Los Angeles Times

Saturday 02 August 2003

WASHINGTON – The 27 classified pages of a congressional report about Sept. 11 depict a Saudi government that not only provided significant money and aid to the suicide hijackers but also allowed potentially hundreds of millions of dollars to flow to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups through suspect charities and other fronts, according to sources familiar with the document.

One U.S. official who has read the classified section said it describes “very direct, very specific links” between Saudi officials, two of the San Diego-based hijackers and other potential co-conspirators “that cannot be passed off as rogue, isolated or coincidental.”

Said another official: “It’s really damning. What it says is that not only Saudi entities or nationals are implicated in 9/11, but the [Saudi] government” as well.

Why doesnt let Bush let this be published now? George Will and George Bush must fear that Webb will want it published. quote moonbats. end quote.By OldAtlantic | Dec 2, 2006 6:05:46 PM

Page 98, start=1941

George Will Nov 30, 2006: “… cavalier historical judgments — although is he sure that America is less egalitarian today than it was, say, 50 years ago, when only about 7 percent of American adults had college degrees? (Twenty-eight percent do today.) “

George Will in March 30, 2006: “Conservatives should favor a policy of encouraging unlimited immigration by educated people with math, engineering, technology or science skills that America’s education system is not sufficiently supplying.”

Webb is saying there is more income inequality today. Will in Nov 2006 says we have 28 percent college degrees, showing Americans are educated. But in March 2006, Will said Americans don’t learn anything in college, i.e. math and science, and that the school system can’t teach them.

If Americans can’t do hard stuff, as Will says in March, then more degrees won’t eliminate the income inequality. Will is willing to say anything based on what point he wants to make. Americans wrote the textbooks in calculus, Apostol, Spivak, Leithholds, etc. If Americans can write the textbooks, can’t they learn from them? Webb doesn’t have this anti-American bigot attitude that Will does, that’s why Will has to discredit him.

By OldAtlantic | Dec 3, 2006 8:48:26 AM

Page 98, start=1941
George Will in March 2006 quote Conservatives should favor a policy of encouraging unlimited immigration by educated people with math, engineering, technology or science skills that Americas education system is not sufficiently supplying. end quote.

Chinese night vision has 2.4 million hits.

We invented night vision in the US but now the Chinese have it and it ends up with the insurgents killing and maiming our troops. It hurt Israel in Lebanon in 2006.

A fair question is whether through his many associations, think tanks, speaking fees, books overseas or used in US courses, etc. Will or any legal entity linked to him gets money from Chinese arms merchants? Is there merchant of death money (American GI’s deaths and maiming) that flows back to Will or any legal entity he has any link to from the know-how transfer to China by H1B’s, grad students, etc?

By OldAtlantic | Dec 3, 2006 1:51:20 PM

Is Will a pompous poseur of disloyalty? Is Will the benefactor of Chinese merchants of death? Is Will a benefactor of the Chinese network that gained our night vision know-how?

American Spectator

George Will and Tyrrell Bashing Webb:

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=10696

..

Price of Oil

http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm

Chart

http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/oilprice1947.gif

From 1985 to 2003, the price of oil fluctuated between 10 and 30 dollars a barrell. Now its at 60 dollars. George Bush has helped Prince Bandar and Prince al-Turki. George Bush’s post 9-11 policies have helped Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan 9-11:

http://www.counterpunch.org/floyd09092003.html

by George Will

Fascism, Alive and Abroad
By George Will
Sunday, October 5, 2003

““It is not fantasy that there have been many reports that the then-head of Pakistani intelligence was responsible for $100,000 being wired to Mohamed Atta, the lead 9/11 hijacker.” [Washington Post. 5 October.’)” onmouseout=”return nd()”>Washington Post, 10/5/2003]” Timeline
On George Will

Criticism: http://www.counterpunch.org/hughes0924.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/chuckman08222003.html

on R. Emmett Tyrrell

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_brass_id.asp

Two links from American Spectator:

Tax Havens
Offshore Banking

Chinese Spying

“How China Steals U.S. Military Secrets
A spate of recent spying cases opens the lid on China’s aggressive military buildup. What’s most troubling: It is based largely on U.S. technology.”

BY Simon Cooper

August 2006
Popular Mechanics

Fact Sheet
Bureau of Political-Military Affairs
Washington, DC
July 3, 2006

“U.S. Arms Export Control Compliance and Enforcement and the UN Program of Action for Small Arms and Light Weapons (SA/LW)”

http://www.state.gov/t/pm/rls/fs/68550.htm

March 2006
SELECT ICE ARMS & STRATEGIC TECHNOLOGY INVESTIGATIONS

China’s Secret War
By Patrick Devenny
FrontPageMagazine.com | March 31, 2005
search China ” night vision” arrested


This article represents hypotheses, speculation or opinion. All other disclaimers apply.

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re: “Study Group to Call for Pullback”

November 30, 2006

But Iraq Panel Has No Timetable

By Thomas E. Ricks and Robin Wright
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, November 30, 2006; Page A01

“The Iraq Study Group, which wrapped up eight months of deliberations yesterday, has reached a consensus and will call for a major withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq, shifting the U.S. role from combat to support and advising, according to a source familiar with the deliberations.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/30/AR2006113000025.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/comments/display?contentID=AR2006113000025&start=21

Comment

Use Iraq bases for ground invasion of Iran now. We paid 3000 lives in Iraq occupation for those bases. Use them.

Iraq battle phase deaths were 200, occupation phase almost 3000. If we give up those bases without invading Iran, we get nothing for our deaths. We save lives by invading from our bases in Iraq.

If Iran defends forward, we destroy them from our bases. If they defend back, we can pick where to destroy them piecemeal. Gingrich was right, we have to look at this as a regional war, not an end in itself.

This article represents hypotheses, speculation or opinion. All other disclaimers apply.

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re: “No Charges Recommended For Allen Allies in Fracas”

November 29, 2006

By Michael D. Shear
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, November 30, 2006; Page A12

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/29/AR2006112901351.html

“RICHMOND, Nov. 29 — The prosecutor in Charlottesville has decided against bringing charges in the case of a Democratic activist who was pushed to the ground by supporters of Sen. George Allen during a campaign appearance late last month.”

Comment

A wise decision to put this behind us. But how opposite to George Allen’s history. Do we really need mandatory minimums and sentencing guidelines, especially for non-violent crimes? FAMM says no. Do we need to take away from juries the ability to nullify?

We now have word processor justice. The prosecutor can take any person and generate a hundred counts against them with the word processor.This requires not much more information than their name.

The Constitution was written when this was not possible and juries were the judge of the law as well as the facts. We need that even more with word processor justice. Juries should be instructed they are the judge of the law and the facts.

Judges need discretion to dismiss cases early, or late. So do appeals court judges. This is better then bending the law. Some juries bend the law on their own, and some take instructions verbatim.

Prosecutors select out jurors who can be wise like this prosecutor. Judges are told not to be wise like this prosecutor. Is this better? Can only prosecutors be wise like this prosecutor?

This article represents hypotheses, speculation or opinion. All other disclaimers apply.

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re “Blair Pledges to Pursue Probe of Ex-Spy’s Death”

November 29, 2006

By Mary Jordan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, November 29, 2006; Page A14

“LONDON, Nov. 28 — Prime Minister Tony Blair said Tuesday that ‘there is no diplomatic or political barrier in the way’ of investigating the mysterious fatal poisoning of a former Russian spy in London and that he planned to speak with Russian President Vladimir Putin about the matter ‘at any time…”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/28/AR2006112801457.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn//comments/display?contentID=AR2006112801457&start=1&sub=AR

Comment:

Berezovsky had a Ph.D. in math from Moscow State Univ. He worked at the Institute of Control Sciences in the USSR. This analyzed the same math as in the Stanley Fischer 1969 MIT Ph.D. thesis and the 1969 NSF grant papers by Robert Merton and Paul Samuelson.

It was also the 1966 thesis of Nils Hakansson. That paper was received by Karl Shell at MIT in 1966 by a record in Econometrica. However, Samuelson and Merton didn’t cite Hakansson. Fischer said he got the Hakansson paper after he wrote his own chapter.

But another chapter turned out to be similar to a Hakansson working paper, as Fischer himself pointed out in his published version.

Fischer was at IMF in spring of 1995 and Summers, the nephew of Samuelson and Arrow at US Treasury when Russia got billions in IMF loans.In the fall of 1995, Berezovsky got by loans for shares oil and gas of Russia.

Russia continued to get big IMF loans through July 1998 from Fischer and Summers even though the oligarchs and Yeltsin family were taking money. This was unlike other IMF recipients. USAO Mass investigated Harvard econ dept from 1997 to 2005.

Jacob Wolfowitz, Paul Wolfowitz’s father had many links to the econ profs at MIT involved in all this. That included to Robert Solow and Franklin M. Fisher. Robert Engle was a Ph.D. graduate who went from Cornell to MIT who had been a Jacob Wolfowitz student for a course, as Engle tells us in his Nobel Prize autobio. Solow also mentions Jacob Wolfowitz in his Nobel Prize autobio.

This article represents hypotheses, speculation, or opinion. All other disclaimers apply.

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re “Pope sells out Europe, says Erdogan”

November 28, 2006

“ANKARA (Reuters) – Pope Benedict told Turkey on Tuesday he backed its bid to join the European Union and believed Islam was a religion of peace, hoping to soothe rows overshadowing a delicate visit to the mainly Muslim country.

Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan hailed the comments, which he said Benedict made to him in their private talk at the airport, and Turkish commentators said they changed the tone of a visit clouded by disputes over the Pope’s view of Islam.”

from Reuters from Robert Spencer, Jihad Watch: Pope sells out Europe, says Erdogan


We are constantly told by our leaders that they have met with foreign leaders. They know better as to what we could get as the best possible deal. Cardinal Ratzinger could more easily tell the truth than Pope Benedict.
But why is it when our leaders meet with foreign leaders they abandon us, but when their leaders meet with ours, they stick to their guns and their people’s interests?

Even when they are caught red handed in over a century of genocide against Christians which is only moderated because very few Christians are left, and most of them old and dying out?

Why is it that a meeting between leaders is for their side an opportunity to stick it to us and for our side an opportunity for apology, betrayal, and surrender?

In the case of Bush, Baker and Prince Bandar, we can say its money. But with the Pope what is it?

The Left has taught us that our leaders should be the Secretary of Apology, Nation Building and Reparations. The Left teaches that to grow in office, our leaders must apologize. To show their sincerity they must give up our right to live in our lands.

This is what the Turks asked for as their right, to get our lands. This is the whole history of the Turks for the last 1000 years. Why can’t EU leaders protect their lands and people? Because the Left won and has instilled in them that they are the Secretary of Apology.

The West is supposed to apologize for Greece, Rome, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and modern science. It is supposed to say that the Turks have superior wisdom. The Turks who have never said no to a chance for conquest and invasion of Europe or of killing Christians and Jews. The Turks have demanded that as their right for a thousand years. That is Turk culture.

Its not modern science, its demanding Europe’s surrender. They demanded it today and got it. Our leaders should not be surprised that when they meet with Turks, the Turks demand our surrender and our lands. That’s what they always demand as their right.

They should be prepared with their own demands and a polite refusal to the standard Turk demand, Europe. Why we have to respond to that politely is a good question for us to ask ourselves. If we demanded Turkey as our right, they wouldn’t respond to it very well. Even a demand to free the Christians now, and give them equality would get a rebuff from them.

The whole history of Turk Europe relations is summed up in the scene in Lawrence of Arabia where Lawrence is whipped at the command of the Turkish officer. Its been that scene for a thousand years.

Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.

Both about the Turks and our leaders.


This article represents hypotheses, speculation, opinion, and disappointment. All other disclaimers apply.

Christians and Jews in Turkey in 20th Century

November 28, 2006

New York Times articles reported the Turkish genocide on November 12 1914 and January 11, and January 13, 1915. Pdf of NY Times articles.

From January 13, 1915 New York Times:

“Talaat Bey, the Minister of the Interior, has stated to the Councillor of the Greek Patriarchate that in Turkey henceforth there will be room only for Turks. While he was profuse in assurance to the Greek Minister regarding the cessation of anti- Greek persecutions, no real amelioration of the situation is perceptible.”

Now the Turkish government is “profuse in its assurances” to the EU, the Pope, and to those stout defenders of Americans and Christians, C. Rice and George Bush that they have stopped anti-Christian persecutions. This is because there are so few Christians to persecute, that it hardly counts compared to the numbers before?

New York Times coverage of September 11, 2001.

9-11 Report and articles

9-11 5 years later

NY Times 1914, 1915 repeat of above link

bin Laden’s 1996 Fatwa and Declaration of War on America.

“The latest and the greatest of these aggressions, incurred by the Muslims since the death of the Prophet (ALLAH’S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM) is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places -the foundation of the house of Islam, the place of the revelation, the source of the message and the place of the noble Ka’ba, the Qiblah of all Muslims- by the armies of the American Crusaders and their allies.”

Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.

Is this now true of France, Denmark, London, Dearborn, Washington, etc?

“…no real amelioration of the situation is perceptible.”

That is care of Bush, Blair, Rice, 9-11 Commission of Hamilton Kean, the Iraq Study Group of Baker Hamilton, Democrats, Republicans, MSM, profs, etc.

“…no real amelioration of the situation is perceptible.”

For Christians in Turkey from 1914 to the 2006 Pope Visit.

For the West after 9-11.

Population of Anatolia 1915 before Genocide Ottoman Official records

Muslims were 5.6 million, total population was 9.1 million. So 3.5 million were non-Muslim. So the genocides or suppression of Christians, Jews and others by the Muslims was really about getting rid of about 40 percent of the population.

Genocide is about getting rid of the people, if we can coin a Yogi Berraism. The Muslims wanted to get rid of 40 percent of the population. This was to take the land, houses, businesses, and money of the victims.

It was a delayed completion of the conquests in previous centuries.

According to the following source, the Muslims killed 3.5 to 4.3 million Christians between 1900 and 1923 in Turkey.

Statistics Of Turkey’s Democide Estimates, Calculations, And Sources” By R.J. Rummel.
Demographics of Turkey

Christian Genocide Minor Asia webpage

Reference on 1942 Tax Law

Unpleasant Genocide Arithmetic

If the population is stable and one group is given an advantage so that its net growth rate is higher than a second group, then the second group will go extinct.

Proof:

In equilibrium the average growth rate is zero. So if one group is above the other in growth rate, it must be above zero and the second group must be below zero. So the second group goes extinct.

Islam is about giving its members advantage over others. So over time Islam is genocide of non-Muslims. Islam was developed in 622 AD when times were hard. This was the Dark Ages. Some think a volcano was responsible for it, but it was a harsh time of scarcity. Islam was designed to give its members a leg up in that time of scarcity over non-Muslims. So Islam is a religion of genocide in population biology terms.

search Christians Turkey 1914

ISHR Christians in Turkey

Holy Land Foundation shut down after 9-11.

Comments at Jihadwatch.org

..

Second article quotations below. (first article is also interesting on confiscations of non Muslim foundations in Turkey. They still haven’t returned them as required by the EU.)

“September 5, 2005

WORLDWIDE TAX OVERVIEW
by Cathy Phillips, editor of Tax Notes International ”

“On the morning of November 12, 1942, the citizens of Turkey woke up to the most draconian wealth tax ever envisaged. While the tax in theory applied to the entire predominantly Muslim nation, in practice much of its burden rested with the minority Christian and Jewish communities who primarily resided in Istanbul, formerly known as Constantinople. Neither the rate of taxation nor the taxable base and its derivation were made public.”

“Tax assessments were arrived at in secret, and individuals were directed to settle their government assessed liabilities within two weeks, without any appeal provisions in place. The penalty for Christians and Jews who failed to do so within a month was deportation to forced labor camps in eastern Turkey in addition to having their property confiscated. The tax was initially also extended to Christian and Jewish schools, as well as to churches and synagogues, but not to Muslim institutions, because they were owned or funded by the government.”

Formatting of tables is better in the original.

” Table 1: Statutory Tax Rates

Provision Applied to Applied to
Rate on wartime profit Muslim Turks Non-Muslims
12.5 percent 50.0 percent
Additional tax zero Up to 50 percent of personal wealth

Source: Faik Okte, The Tragedy of the Turkish Capital Tax.”

“In an otherwise officially secular state, taxpayers were classified as Muslim and non-Muslim, denoted with the letters M and G, respectively./2/ The latter included Jews and Christians, including Armenians and Greeks. Assyrian Orthodox Christians also fell in that class. An additional class of taxpayers were the Donme, denoted by D. The Donme were Jews whose ancestors had converted to Islam in the 17th century./3/ Like the Jews and Christians, the Donme were taxed at rates higher than those that applied to Muslims.”

“able 3: Tax Assessments of Minority Institutions

Christian and Jewish Institutions/*/ Number Assessment (TRL)
Schools 88 227,550
Churches and Synagogues 27 119,200
Hospitals 7 86,750

/*/ Zero assessment for Muslim institutions, which numbered in the thousands.

Source: Faik Okte, The Tragedy of the Turkish Capital Tax.”

“Table 4: Effective Tax Rates by Religious and Ethnic Affiliations

Merchants by Affiliation Tax Rates (percent)
Muslim 4.94
Greek Orthodox 156.00
Jewish 179.00
Christian Armenian 232.00

Source: C.L. Sulzberger, “Turkish Tax Kills Foreign Business,”
The New York Times, Sept. 11, 1943.”

Posted by: Old Atlantic [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 28, 2006 08:07 AM

Reference on above 1942 Tax Law


Population of Anatolia 1915 before Genocide Ottoman Official records

Muslims were 5.6 million, total population was 9.1 million. So 3.5 million were non-Muslim. So the genocides or suppression of Christians, Jews and others by the Muslims was really about getting rid of them.

It was a delayed completion of the conquests in previous centuries.
Posted by: Old Atlantic [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 28, 2006 08:36 AM..

New York Times coverage of September 11, 2001.

9-11 Report and articles

9-11 5 years later

NY Times 1914, 1915 repeat of above link

Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.

bin Laden’s Fatwa compared to Talaat Bey in 1914 saying Turkey for Turks only.


bin Laden’s 1996 Fatwa and Delcaration of War against America.

“The latest and the greatest of these aggressions, incurred by the Muslims since the death of the Prophet (ALLAH’S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM) is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places -the foundation of the house of Islam, the place of the revelation, the source of the message and the place of the noble Ka’ba, the Qiblah of all Muslims- by the armies of the American Crusaders and their allies.”

Repeat of

From January 13, 1915 New York Times:

“Talaat Bey, the Minister of the Interior, has stated to the Councillor of the Greek Patriarchate that in Turkey henceforth there will be room only for Turks. While he was profuse in assurance to the Greek Minister regarding the cessation of anti-Greek persecutions, no real amelioration of the situation is perceptible.”

Is this now true of France, Denmark, London, Dearborn, Washington, etc?

“…no real amelioration of the situation is perceptible.”

That is care of Bush, Blair, Rice, 9-11 Commission of Hamilton Kean, the Iraq Study Group of Baker Hamilton, Democrats, Republicans, MSM, profs, etc.

Posted by: Old Atlantic [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 28, 2006 10:22 AM

..

With respect to my colleague Limes in this case, sometimes you can extrapolate. “Mathematical models might be useful five or ten years out, but don’t extrapolate decades into the future. The unsustainable never is.”


98 percent of Turkey is Muslim today


Ottoman Empire 40 percent Christian 1915

So the Christian population went from 40 percent in 1915 to less than 2 percent today.

So with respect to my colleague, what turned out to be unsustainable in Turkey was Christian life.

“On December 21, 1995, Bethlehem became one of the areas under the full control of the Palestinian Authority. It is capital of the Bethlehem district. The current population of the town is about 40,000. The Christian population is no longer the majority, but a special statute requires that the mayor and a majority of the municipal council must nevertheless be Christian.”

“Bethlehem’s former mayor, Hanna Nasser, says an estimated 2,000 Christians in Bethlehem have emigrated during the period of 2000 – 2003. Fifty years ago, Bethlehem was overwhelmingly Christian. Today, it has a Muslim majority.”


Bethlehem wiki
There is a need to understand the genocides and forced deportations against Christians and Jews in the entire Middle East in the 20th and 21s centuries.

==

http://civoc.com/newsline/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=9

Posted by: Arnie [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 28, 2006 10:44 AM The above is from CNN and the gentle lady from Lebanon, a Chrisian, tells how Hezbollah is taking over. They have large families, drive out the Christians to take their lands for their families and then vote themselves in power. Terrorists are in the government of Lebanon, which was once Christian.

This is what happens. It is happening in America, England, Denmark, France, Germany , Norway, Russia, Spain, Sweden, etc.

This is happening to us now. We must stop immigration. Critics say, it hasn’t happened to us already. Then when it does, if they were here, they would say its too late to do anything. This is what they say about immigration, and nukes in North Korea, Pakistan and Iran. They will let Saudi Arabia and UAE get nukes. They let Russia and China get nukes and the left even gave them the secrets.

They invented Mutual Assured Destruction after the fact to make it sound logical. This was to cover up betrayal. The Ph.D.’s at RAND who made up MAD were covering up the espionage by Russia still going on.

The people justifying nukes for Pakistan, Iran and North Korea today are the same leftists anti-Westerners who covered up communist subversion in the 1940’s and 1950’s and let Russia get the bomb. They said it was ok, it was MAD. Russia will be 50 percent Muslim in 50 years or less.

When they use those nukes on us, will it have made sense to have let Russia get nukes in the 1940’s? The professors lied and betrayed us in the 1940’s just as they do today. Harvard, Princeton, University of Chicago, Berkeley, Stanford, Yale, etc. were covering up espionage then and are betraying us now.

The Christians in Turkey went from 40 percent in 1915 to 2 percent or less in 2006. This is what happens when we listen to the liars and West haters on the Left. We have to fight, not let our politicians, profs and MSM betray us. They can’t think beyond today’s headline. We must. We must act. We must tell them to stop immigration totally. We must denuke NoKo and Pakistan and stop it in Iran and Saudi Arabia. These are enemy homelands funding invasion of us by immigration.

This is real. This is what history is. Civilizations fall. Ethnic groups go extinct. You either face up to reality and do something about it or you disappear from the planet. That is what the Left has wanted since Marx.

We need to stop immigration, give our young adults economic security from no immigration and let them get married, have big families and stay married. That comes from job security. Job security comes from no immigration.

Immigration was started in Europe in the 1950’s. In the US in 1965. In both cases, it killed job security for the young. In both cases it brought the population rate below replacement We need to support young adults with job security and end every type of immigration. This includes H1B, family reunification, asylum, etc.

We need to stop the genocide of Christians in Lebanon and the Middle East and support them. We need to say that this genocide of Christians is what Islam is about from the beginning and is now. Islam was an ideology developed in 622 AD during the Dark Ages to justify taking Christian lands and subjugating them so that their population would decline over time.

Now Islam is on the march again, during a time of demographic stress created by their own birth rates. Their birth rates make their lands unlivable so they have to invade ours. We do nothing but allow it. The Left and the betrayers like McCain, Kennedy, Bush, etc. want this to happen to us. They lied during the 1965 Immigration Act and said it wouldn’t change anything. They lied then and lie now. They want our demographic democide. They work for it and lie to our faces.

Democide happened in Turkey. The Christians went from 40 percent in 1915 to under 2 percent in 2006. This is happening now in the US and Europe. Its reality. We must stop immigration now. This includes family reunification, lottery, waiting in line, etc.

Robert Spencer Jihad Watch: Pope Rage in Istanbul Comments

Limes and Malinois are right, if we respond. If we wait for the invisible hand to stop immigration completely, not just a token amount, then it will happen.

We have to be politically active. We have to persuade. We have to write to Congressman and Senators. It doesn’t happen by itself.

Once we project our exctinction, and anticipate it will happen if we don’t change, then we still have to act based on that expectation. If no change means we go extinct, and we don’t actually change it, then we do go extinct.

Immigration causes extinction of all the genes in a country, and on a rolling basis every annual cohort of immigrants.

See
Unpleasant Immigration Arithmetic


and more at this search on “Unpleasant Immigration Arithmetic”

We also have to denuke Pakistan and Iran, and support the Christians in Lebanon, Africa, etc.

Posted by: Old Atlantic [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 28, 2006 11:53 AM

“Unpleasant Immigration Arithmetic” is a mathematical theorem. If the assumption of sustained immigration is true, the consequence that genes go extinct follows. This applies to everyone here, and everyone who comes in any given year.

Each cohort of everyone here, including those newly arrived, has its genetic survival ratio asymptote to zero if immigration continues.

To avoid the consequences of the mathematical theorem, the assumption has to be completely avoided. Reducing immigration doesn’t avoid the assumption. Immigration has to be zero. Close doesn’t work. Its a theorem.

Limes and Malinois have said if we change things, the consequences won’t happen that will happen if we don’t change them. But we have to actually change immigration to zero, not just reduce it a lot.

Posted by: Old Atlantic [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 28, 2006 12:48 PM

 

 


This article represents opinion, hypotheses, speculation, and perhaps our last chance. All other disclaimers apply.

“Marine Corps May Need to Grow, General Says”

November 22, 2006

“Commandant Cites Pace of Iraq and Afghanistan Rotations, Readiness Requirements”

By Lolita C. Baldor
Associated Press
Thursday, November 23, 2006; Page A06

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/22/AR2006112201678.html

“The Marine Corps may need to grow to sustain deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan without sacrificing needed training or putting undue stress on the corps, the new Marine commandant said yesterday.”

Comments

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/comments/display?contentID=AR2006112201678

Marine Corps 2000 per year, Iraqi 100k per year?

“Increasing the size of the Marine Corps, he added, could be done only by 1,000 to 2,000 troops per year over an extended period.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/22/AR2006112201678_pf.html

The top US Marine says Marine Corps can expand only at 1 to 2000 per year. But the Iraqi military has been incrased to 325,000 since 0 in 2003. Iraq has 1/10 the population of the US. So why is it the Marine Corps can only expand at 2000 per year but Iraq’s military, with 1/10 the pop of US has gone up 100,000 per year?

This is the problem in telling obvious lies You get caught in them.

Bush tax cut, Bush Sr. No New Taxes

Bush Sr. pledged “read my lips, No New Taxes” in 1988 because speech writer Peggy Noonan put it in his speech. Bush jr blames Bush sr breaking that pledge for Bush Sr losing in 1992. So after 9-11, Bush Jr wouldn’t increase the size of the military even back to the 1991 level. Bush jr thought he would lose the election in 2004. So NoKO, Pakistan, Iran, and Saudi Arabia went off scot free. Now they are breaking out in nukes. Iraq never had enough troops for the occupations. Bush Jr betrayed us to get reelected in 2004. Now the top Marine is lying to cover it up.

This article represents opinion, hypotheses, speculation, and catching Bushco in lies. All other disclaimers apply.

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re Thomas Holsinger on “The Case for Invading Iran”

November 22, 2006

The Case for Invading Iran

by Guest Author at January 19, 2006 1:24 PM

by Thomas Holsinger

Winds of Change

This is brilliant analysis of why we should invade Iran now. The comments for and against an invasion of Iran both show why we need to invade Iran now.

The comments against Iran invasion now or ever show why you don’t have time in war. After 9-11, Bush thought he had time. When you have the advantage, thinking you have time is your greatest enemy. You never have time in war. Its like the tortoise and the hare.

After 9-11, we needed to proceed at 2 to 3 countries per year. That included all those involved against us in 9-11, before 9-11, and afterwards. Those who have made war on Israel, India, etc. are guilty enough. That includes Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. We don’t need to wait for proof they attacked us or for them to attack us.

Bush didn’t want to cancel his tax cuts and increase the military. His father lost in 1992 after breaking his 1988 no new tax pledge. A speech writer put in a speech, “read my lips, no new taxes.” That speech writer, Peggy Noonan, has caused the victory of Political Islam. The West lost its best chance after 9-11 for a complete sweep of the Middle East and Pakistan.

We should have called in our NATO allies and said this is an attack on the US, you have to join. We should have increased the military by 2 million or more. In WWII, we won in 3 1/2 years from Pearl Harbor and had well over 10 million under arms with less than half the population.

In war, you have to win quick if you can. Not to do so is to “snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.” That is what Bush did, because of a line in a speech in 1988.

The fault dear people is in ourselves, not in our leaders if we allow Iran to go nuclear. It is our civilization that is being destroyed. It is our defeat that is being snatched from the jaws of victory. We must speak up and demand victory now. We must demand it over all those who are against us, not just the two most remote countries.

In WWII we island hopped to the main enemy homelands, Japan and Germany. We invaded North Africa in 1942. We didn’t stop and nation build it. We went on to Germany as fast as we can.

Our Secretary of State didn’t say, you broke it you own it. That is leftist third world propaganda thinking. The US invaded North Africa in 1942. When did US troops leave North Africa? Its so unimportant, no one knows. That’s how important it was to stop and nation build Iraq and Afghanistan.

We needed to finish this war in 2002 and 2003. That includes Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Syria.

We think from the bottom up, 9-11, Iraq, Afghanistan, not the top down. Junior officers from Vietnam think at the village level. They think about tiger cages, prison snafus and abuses, booby traps on trails, disputes about medals, and the rest of the trivia.

We were attacked in 1979, in 1993 at WTC, in 1996, 1998, 2000, 2001, and the years since. That is funded and supplied out of the homelands listed above, above all Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Iran. They are at war with us. Going to the UN was a mistake in 2002. We need to achieve victory now. We can still add 2 million to the military and win it all in 2 years.

This is a war for our survival. Now is the time a military victory is possible. The best victories are military victories. They are at war to destroy us. They started in 622 AD. Their ideology is designed for the specific purpose of world conquest and occupation. We have to listen to them, not to PC nonsense. The time to fight wars is when we lose 200 battle phase deaths.

Junior officers in WWI learned the wrong lesson, don’t fight wars when you win at low cost. They could have stopped Hitler for 20,000 lives in 1933. Instead they lost 50 to 150 million starting 6 years later.

Junior officers from Vietnam have the same wrong lesson. Their thinking is at the level of the individual house, hut, and village. They have no concept of an enemy that desires world domination. That is our enemy today.

Junior officers from WWI couldn’t believe Hitler meant it when he said he wanted world domination. The same applies to our Vietnam era junior officers. The enemy said in 622 AD they wanted that and have repeated it over and over. Time to finish this off in the next 2 years.

See also

The Atlantic Monthly | December 2004

“Will Iran Be Next?”

“Soldiers, spies, and diplomats conduct a classic Pentagon war game—with sobering results”

by James Fallows

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200412/fallows

This article is opinion, hypotheses and speculation. All other disclaimers apply.

Save and Invest, Stop Aid, Save the Planet

November 22, 2006

To help people around the world, invest in stocks. If all the money that had gone to aid the poor had been put in stocks, the world would be a far better place.

The Field Museum in Chicago has an exhibit showing that humans are causing a mass extinction of species. We have a population bubble. Aid and immigration support the population bubble. Both must stop completely.

Immigration to the US causes global warming to go up at the per capita rate in the US. This erases all faux cost savings by itself, apart from the cost of schools, prisons, longer commutes, crime, etc.

Global warming and pollution is destroying the diversity of species. This is the reserve that the earth has built up to protect itself against comets and meteors and other natural disasters. However, it is man, the disaster, whose population bubble is destroying the reserve of the diversity of species. This will eventually pop the human population bubble.

New diseases like aids are the earth’s attempt to protect itself from the new species that is destroying all the others. These diseases arise most where the population bubble is highest and are spread by immigration into the other areas.

Aid expands the population bubble. Those in the aid community are often very anti-American. They really want to hurt us, that’s why they do it. Bill Gates is an example of a ruthless businessman who was caught for antitrust violations who wants to justify what he did to us by giving to non-Americans.

By giving to them he vindicates himself by proving we didn’t deserve respect in the first place. This motive is why his aid actually makes them worse off and spreads aids by destroying middle class morality in Africa like it is being destroyed today in America.

Warren Buffet has given his money to Bill Gates on the understanding it won’t be used to help Americans. In both cases, prosecutors looked the other way in investigations. They are using their second chance to hurt us, the very reason they were investigated in the first place.

The whole aid community has this attitude. They say Americans are bigots. They say there should not have been profiling on 9-11, because Americans are all Archie Bunker bigots who didn’t deserve to live.

Because they have this attitude, they use the aid money to make Africa worse. This is because they are at war with middle class morality. That is what they are rebelling against. That is what they want to destroy. So they use the money to destroy it in Africa. That spreads aids in Africa and from there everywhere else.

Aid props up corruption and discrimination against women. Commerce empowers women. Much of commerce was invented by women to emancipate themselves. In traditional hunter gatherer societies, women invented commerce and business.

Microfinance is a way to empower women by small loans for small business. Investing in stock funds that do business in the third world is a way for the women who borrow small loans for small business to have someone to sell to.

Helping women in the third world is the way to fight the dictators and the killing. Much of that is fueled by extreme ideologies of subjugation of women. Aid props up the corrupt governments run by them.

World Bank and IMF staff fly first class and stay at the best hotels. They don’t meet with the women who are oppressed but the dictators they are giving the money to. They get consulting deals for consulting firms that they have a revolving door relation with. This money is wasted. The aid community has no real accountability for what it does with money. The result is the population bubble and the oppression of women.

Most countries in Africa are worse to live in today than 50 years ago. This is the work of the aid community. Their motives were often dislike of us, and that is why they didn’t actually make Africa better. They hated small town America and hated its values. Africa was closer to small town America values 50 years ago than today after the aid community has had its way with it.

It was destroying middle class morality in Africa that spread aids. Aid ruined Africa. Aid is making it worse today. Buffet and Gates have given 60 billion dollars to make it worse. Don’t give more.

A powerful ideology supported by the aid community is subjugating women in India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Africa, Philippines, and many other places. This ideology is praised by the aid community as the religion of peace.

It was the oil companies that made Saudi Arabia end slavery in the 1960’s, although they still practice it on the sly. Saudi Arabia gives money to suicide bombers and insurgents.

Saudi Arabia’s aid has made the world a place of rage. Saudi aid creates rage. Saudi aid has destroyed Lebanon, the West Bank, Gaza, and even itself.

Saudi aid is given to kill Christians and Jews on the West Bank and in Lebanon. Bethlehem was recently Christian, but Saudi aid was used to get rid of them. Saudi aid is supporting the killing of Christians in Africa. UN aid agencies are run by countries that explicitly say they want to kill Jews.

There is a war against Christians in Africa, the Middle East, and in Asia. The aid community is covertly supporting it, and won’t speak out against it. They want Saudi money. They are against small town middle America. They think small town middle Americans are all Archie Bunker bigots.

Aid destroys middle class morality. Its middle class morality that separates us from savagery. If you want the world to be a better place today, and for civilization to survive, then promote middle class morality.

Aid props up dictators. Aid is the mantra of faux populists like Teddy Kennedy. The way to tell a real populist from a fake one, is the real ones are called names by the left. Lou Dobbs is called the “Night Nativist” by Daphne Eviatar, “Nightly Nativism” at the Nation.

See Not Nativism Series

Aid destroys equilibrium.  Aid operates against incentives in individual lives for sober and proper behavior.  Aid rewards reckless behavior.  Aid rewards bad behavior.  Aid pays those who are reckless, but not those who are prudent.  Aid undermines the warning messages of elders.

Aid is outsiders saying don’t listen to your parents to study, eat properly, go to bed early, get a job, get married and be faithful, etc.  Aid says, don’t worry, be happy.

Societies have equilibrium mechanisms.  These protect the weak from the strong.  The king can’t destroy the middle class and working poor, or he has no income.  But aid undoes that.  Aid lets the dictator torture and be cruel, and then it undoes the consequences.

The control mechanism on kings of old was that bad kings destroyed their kingdom and the people revolted and killed the king.  Kings knew that.

Our freedom comes from Magna Carta.  King John was cruel and wasteful.  The people revolted and demanded he sign a charter of their freedom.   Parliament represented the shopkeepers and barons.  They imposed middle class morality on the king and the kingdom.

If the aid people had been around in 1215, we wouldn’t have our freedoms today.  They would have propped up King John.  They would have stopped middle class morality in England.

Every society has its means of equilibrium.  These protect women and the weak.  The aid community destrosy these checks and balances on the strong and the dictators.  The result is that women are oppressed.

There is a powerful ideology of oppression of women spread by Saudi Arabia using aid.  They have corrupted the aid community which goes along with it for Saudi money.  This is just like the universities in America.  They have sold us out for Saudi gold.
Be a “good man of business” like Scrooge said. This is how to aid womankind. Stop the subjugation of women in the third world that is fueled by aid, especially from Saudi Arabia, but also the aid community that praises this as the religion of peace.

Practice thrift at home. Attend to your own business. Save and invest wisely. Be part of your own community. Give the gift of a good job by saving and investing money well. Stop immigration. Bring the good jobs back to America and Europe.

Remember like Uncle Scrooge, “mankind is your business”. Stop aid, stop immigration. Save diversity of species. Save the species, save the human species. Show some humanity and save.

Give of yourself. Instead of writing an aid check, write a letter to your Congressman or Senator. Fax, mail, email, or call. Write your Congressmen or your Senator today telling them to stop aid, all immigration, including H1B, family reunification and faux asylum.

Give your time to save good jobs for Americans. Tell them no more student visas. Universities have unlimited H1B visas. Let them have none. Don’t let universities admit students from other countries into physics graduate student programs. Make them only admit Americans. Support our troops. Chinese night vision equipment is sold to the insurgents to wound and maim our troops. Ask your Senator and Congressman to visit maimed troops and tell them they vote for H1B.

Get their voting grades from: Americans for Better Immigration.

This article represents diversity of opinion, hypotheses or speculation. All other disclaimers apply.

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