You could travel as a non-Muslim American to Pakistan in 1981.
“Tourists can obtain a free, 30-day visa (necessary for Americans) at border crossings and airports.”
“Furthermore, since alcohol is no longer served in public places (you can get it in your hotel room if you are a non-Muslim foreigner) the lure of a lingering restaurant evening was somewhat diminished for us.”
“Because Pakistan is an Islamic nation, most tourist attractions and all mosques are closed to visitors on Fridays.”
So on non-Fridays non-Muslims could even visit mosques.
Obama did not need a KTP from Indonesia showing he was Muslim. Nor did he need an Indonesian passport to travel to Pakistan in the summer of 1981 or later.
==Correction on KTP
search indonesia ktp identity “17 years”
Indonesia passport “age 17”
Unmarried children in Indonesia do not get a KTP until age 17.
I have also seen that children travel on the parent’s passport. But am not asserting this. So its possible that Obama never had an Indonesian passport?
==Correction 7:08 PM EDT
There is a student KTP as well as an adult one as Judah Benjamin clarifies at his revised post. The basic conclusion of JB that Obama held dual nationality while in Indonesia and likely afterward seems valid. When Obama returned to Indonesia in 1981, he was older than 18 and under 21. Which may present some interesting possibilities based on what he did or didn’t do.
To Barack Obama, the American passport is an accessory. You can switch it for the Indonesian passport and Indonesian internal passport, KTP, when you want to or need to. Obama may have used his Indonesian passport or KTP at age 20 to visit Pakistan as a Muslim in 1981 while a college student at Columbia University.
If so, this is a factor in determining whether he had chosen US or Indonesian citizenship. As part of the same trip, he visited Indonesia. Another factor is whether he used the Indonesian passport or KTP during that trip in 1981 while a college student in the United States.
Judah Benjamin at Texas Darlin analyzes the issue of loyalty and dual citizenship in the test for eligibility for president which is different than simply being a citizen with the right to vote, do business, etc.
Does his Indonesian passport show he is Muslim? The KTP does show he is Muslim. When he entered Pakistan in 1981, he may have used a US passport and an Indonesian KTP to establish he was Muslim or may have used both the Indonesian passport and the KTP.
My comment posted at TD:
When Obama went to Pakistan in 1981 if he used his Indonesian Passport and/or KTP to prove he was Muslim, then he made use of his Indonesian citizenship at that point.
This goes back to Constitutional intent. The Founding Fathers in the 1780’s already knew that there were people who would use nationality and citizenship as an accessory, using whichever was most convenient at the time. Divided loyalty was not a new concept to the generation that fought the revolution and saw Benedict Arnold use identity as an accessory.
They were willing to welcome such an attitude on the docks of New York but not in the White House. In Article II, they intended to say to be president, you had to be an American for life, not using American identity as an accessory.
Another comment posted at that thread on TD
At age 20, Obama may have used his Indonesian passport or KTP to gain entrance to Pakistan.
“Section 349 of the INA [8 USC § 1481] specifies several conditions under which US citizenship may be lost. These include:
* becoming a naturalized citizen of another country, or declaring allegiance to another country, after reaching age 18;”
Note that there are conflicting statements on these issues. Currently, the person has to intend to give up US citizenship, but in 1981 a different standard may have applied. How an act done in 1981 is interpreted now is also an issue. By using an Indonesian passport in 1981, did Obama activate or elect Indonesian citizenship? Is that why he kept the Pakistan trip secret for so long?
Did Obama use a KTP or Indonesian passport when he traveled to Indonesia in 1981 as part of the same trip?
Additional Comment at TD
Obama appears to have gone to Indonesia first in 1981 and then to Pakistan. Obama may have renewed his Indonesian passport and KTP in 1981 in Indonesia at age 20. That would mean under Indonesian law at the time that he had elected Indonesian citizenship after age 18 and that under Indonesian law he had given up US citizenship.
US law at the time and now is that the person is expected to obey the law of both countries. So by renewing or even using a current Indonesian passport and KTP to travel to Pakistan and Indonesia in 1981, Obama intended to give up US citizenship under the law of the time taking the law of both countries together and assuming he intended to obey both or at least Indonesian by renewing or using an Indonesian passport and KTP that were current in 1981 after his 18th birthday.
Many ask why Obama didn’t mention the trip to Pakistan before, e.g. in his books. One reason is that if he used the Indonesian passport in 1981, then that may be a factor to determine whether he chose Indonesian citizenship.
What is the critical date to choose citizenship? Is it 18 or 21? If its 18, then Obama in 1981 was 20 years old, he was born in 1961, and he was past the critical date. By using the Indonesian passport after age 18, then he chose Indonesian citizenship is one interpretation or legal theory.
The new Indonesian citizenship law considered as landmark on citizenship. It provides for, among others, children from mixed-marriage to have dual citizenship until they reach 18 years of age or more when they have to choose one citizenship, either Indonesian or the other.
Under this new-enacted law, the child does not automatically lose his or her Indonesian status. Indonesian women are not automatically follow their husband’s citizenship status and can be sponsor for their husband to turn status to Indonesian citizens.
The newly-enacted citizenship law gives children of mixed-marriages with Indonesian mothers the rights to dual citizenship until they are 18 years old. At the age of 18, they can choose whether to stay Indonesian citizens or follow their foreign father’s citizenship. They will be then given additional three more years to decide on which nationality to choose.
The above is from a full-service Indonesian law firm that can assist people with these citizenship issues as well as doing business in Indonesia presumably. (No fee to OA.) The old law may have treated women and men differently, i.e. the father or the mother.
If Obama used his Indonesian passport or KTP at age 20 to get into Pakistan, that may constitute a choice under Indonesian law to have chosen to be Indonesian. That would be a factor in such a test.
For US president, the factor test may be different than citizenship. For US president, a person must have always chosen the US branch. For citizenship, there might be 6 factors one way and 4 factors the other, and the person is considered to have chosen one citizenship over the other. Obviously, we don’t want people to lose both citizenships and have nowhere to go. Even bigots don’t want that.
Obama wants to be a world president. Obama has involved himself in the internal politics of Kenya while an elected US official, which he has been continuously in Illinois or the US Senate since the mid 1990’s. Obama has 3 countries at least, Kenya, Indonesia, and the US he feels loyalty to.
Obama’s book, Dreams of My Father, show him choosing loyalty to his father over loyalty to his mother. Judah Benjamin at Texas Darlin discusses the Kenya loyalty issues. These become additional factors for Obama. Canada and even the U.K. may receive some points if Obama was born there.
Say there are 100 loyalty points to use in tests of loyalty. In Obama’s case, suppose the U.S. has 40, Indonesia 30, Kenya 25 and miscellaneous 5. So the US is less than 50. That may give him US citizenship for tax, residence and business purposes. But it is not what the Constitution intended.
The Constitution didn’t say the person for president could have loyalty to 3 countries, and as long as the US was best out of 3, he could be president. Obama could activate his Kenyan citizenship at any time according to Judah Benjamin’s analysis at Texas Darlin linked to above. Thus this is an ongoing factor. This is very important because Obama in his book, Dreams of my Father, showed he picked his father, Kenyan, over his mother, American-Indonesian. Obama has also participated in internal Kenyan politics while an elected official in the United States.
Thus Obama’s ability to activate Kenyan citizenship and his participation in politics there may indicate he has a substantial mine of Kenyan points. He has a substantial part of his family there. Obama shows no identification with his extended white family as he does with his Kenyan one. He doesn’t write books about looking up his extended white family relatives. Nor does he visit them and join in the politics of the states or cities they live in as part of his travels.
The US Constitution requires under Judah Benjamin’s analysis that if a person has 100 citizen points, then they all or a very high percentage, say 90 or more have to be in the U.S. scale. The ones that are voluntary, using the Indonesian or U.S. passport when age 20 are of particular importance. Writing books where the person says he is loyal to his Kenyan family and doesn’t even care about his American family while attending a white hating Church and joining in Kenyan politics is evidence of his internal feelings of loyalty. Steve Sailer has developed this in many articles.
The intent of the Constitution was not that people could come and go using US citizenship and identity as it suited them and be president. You could be a sailor with such an approach or a merchant or dealer. You could have a house in the port of New York and another in the West Indies or Paris. But you couldn’t be president with such a history.
Obama over the course of his life has used citizenship or religious or national identity as it suited him. He has worn the coat of many colors in nationality, citizenship and religion. Whichever advanced him at the time was the one he used. Obama wants to be a world president as his Berlin trip showed. Obama regards Kenyan, Indonesian, and American citizenship or identity as just part of his brand and his experience to prepare him to be the world president.
But that is not what the Constitution intends. The Founding Fathers already knew about world travelers like Obama who changed identity with each port of call. They had those in the 18th century already. They didn’t want a Benedict Arnold president who could switch sides when it suited his career interests. They wanted a George Washington president. A guy who was there for you. They wanted a president who would hang with us even if meant risking being hung with us.
The Founding Fathers in the Constitution wanted a president without options. Obama has options. Obama can activate his Kenyan citizenship at any time. Obama has used his Indonesian citizenship when it suited him. Obama has chosen to be a world merchant politician who tells each city he visits that he is one of them.
The Founding Fathers already decided that disqualified someone from being the American president. The analysis of Judah Benjamin at Texas Darlin makes that clear in the Constitutional and legal history context in Kenya, Indonesia, and America. The Constitution says no KIA presidents, only pure A presidents are allowed.
Obama likely got an Indonesian passport and KTP in 1965 or 1966. By 1981, he may have had an expired one. To visit Pakistan in 1981 he may have needed an Indonesian passport, and possibly a KTP showing he was Muslim. We know he went to Indonesia first on that trip, or at least I’ve seen that. So he may have had to go to Indonesia first to renew his Indonesian passport and likely KTP. That KTP would have said again that he was Muslim. He needed that to show to Pakistan that he was Muslim. They would want to see his current KTP not his old one if he showed them a new Indonesian passport.
Obama by getting a new Indonesian passport and internal passport KTP in 1981 when he was 20 would have then affirmed a choice as an Indonesian citizen after age 18. Under Indonesian law at that time, that meant he was a sole Indonesian national and citizen and not US. US law at that time may have tended to see countries with those laws as meaning the person intended to give up US citizenship. That could be used as a fact standard for legal analysis today even under the intent to give up citizenship.
In 1981, Indonesian and US law combined meant that for Obama at age 20 to get Indonesian citizenship he intended to give up US citizenship. So even under today’s intent standard looking at the facts and law as it existed in 1981 to establish intent by Obama in 1981, we arrive that he intended under the law and facts of the time to give up US citizenship by renewing his Indonesian passport and KTP in 1981 as a 20 year old.
Indonesia would let him do that because he was desirable. Even if he had to do that at age 18, they could accept this because he was a student at Columbia University. Indonesia wants IMF and World Bank loans, and other international and US assistance. So they want people enrolled in Columbia University or the equivalent to be Indonesian and carry the Indonesian passport. In addition, bribes can be paid.
Obama needed the current Indonesian passport and current KTP marking him as Muslim in 1981 to then go onto Pakistan. So he had to go back to Indonesia and do the renewals.
If he had current Indonesian papers from when he was before 18, by going to Indonesian and then Pakistan and using the then current KTP and Indonesian passport at age 20, he still showed he wanted to be treated as an Indonesian citizen after age 18. He knew that meant under Indonesian law giving up US citizenship.
US dual citizenship standards today indicate the person is expected to obey the laws of both countries. So in 1981, that meant Obama gave up US citizenship to obey Indonesian law by using Indonesian passport and/or KTP that were current to get into Indonesia and Pakistan. Thus Obama intended to give up his US citizenship in 1981, because he knew that was the consequence of renewing or using Indonesian KTP and Passport in 1981 to go to Pakistan and likely using them in Indonesia as well.
Any person has standing to file in court for Obama to be stripped of his delegates on the basis that he gave up his US citizenship completely in 1981 by going to Indonesia and renewing or using a current Indonesian passport and KTP and then using the same to go on to Pakistan in 1981. Under the law of Indonesia at the time that meant he intended to give up US citizenship. Under US law at the time and now that shows intent to give up US citizenship. So Obama did in fact intend to constructively give up US citizenship. The constructive means that because the law says he intended to obey the law of both counties and Indonesian law at the time and now says that he gave up US citizenship, that constructively this was his intent, regardless of his personal thoughts.
So Obama is completely out as a US citizen. So he can’t hold any office. He is not a US citizen and that is the basis of pleading for him to give up his delegates and be disqualified.
Obama used “technicalities” in the 1990’s and in the primaries. Obama kept Florida and Michigan from revoting or getting their full delegates. Citizenship is not just a technicality for president. He is not a citizen by his actions in 1981.
To summarize. Any US citizen can plead in court to have Obama stripped of his delegates on the grounds that he is not a US citizen. They can plead to not allow him on any ballot for president on the same grounds.
Obama had the intent and actually did give up his US citizenship in 1981 by either renewing his Indoensian passport and/or KTP or using ones that were current to travel to Indonesia or Pakistan. The law of the US and Indonesia is that constructively he had the intent in 1981 to follow the law of both the US and Indonesia. That meant that under Indonesian law he gave up US citizenship in 1981.
His constructive intent is proven by showing that the laws of Indonesia and the US at the time indicated that his getting or using a current Indonesian passport or KTP in 1981 at age 20 meant that he gave up US citizenship. This is because the law of both countries taken together indicates that intent by constructively giving him the intent to obey the law of both countries. In any analysis of intent under today’s standard, looking back to the laws of Indonesia and the US at the time, that interpretation follows.
If Obama became 5 before he got to Indonesia, or his mother married Soetoro, that would be well established in the public record by Obama. Any other critical date event in Obama’s favor we would know about. He already knows all the critical dates and legal theories. Data that supports his case is public. Data that doesn’t is in the we don’t know or aren’t sure category. That was where the 1981 trip to Pakistan was until Obama himself disclosed it because he needed to show foreign policy experience relative to McCain’s early experiences in the Navy.
The registration at school in Indonesia show he was adopted, even if it happened after age 5. His step father was a government official and his mother American, so he was desirable. That’s the way citizenship procedure has always worked in practice.
Reference on Pakistan 1981 trip
It all sounds very innocent, “a college trip to Pakistan”.
Pakistan was in turmoil in 1981 and ruled of martial law. Millions of Afghan refugees were living in Pakistan, while the Afghan Mujahedeen operated from bases inside Pakistan in their war with the Soviets. One of the leaders that based his operation in Quetta, Pakistan was Usama Bin Laden (The Sheik).
Pakistan was on the banned travel list for US Citizens at the time and all non-Muslim visitors were not welcome unless sponsored by their embassy for official business.
The would be only a few reasons a young Westerner of the Muslim faith would travel to Pakistan in 1981:
To Participate in Jihad, which is the duty of every “True Believer”.
For religious education in a Wahabbi sect, Saudi funded, Madrassa.
In order to purchase drugs from the drug marketplace.
Pakistan was not a tourist stop nor the place to hang out with someone’s family in 1981.
Posted by: Rob | May 3, 2008 2:13:43 AM
Suppose Obama wanted to get drugs in Pakistan. That would give him motive to arrange the trip to Indonesia to renew his Indonesian passport and KTP so that he could go to Pakistan, get drugs, and it wouldn’t show up on his US passport that he went to Pakistan. He also went to India on the trip. So to the US coming back, he went to Indonesia and India. The trip to Pakistan is on the Indonesian passport.
Obama wanted real bad to renew that Indonesian passport in 1981 so that the US authorities wouldn’t see he had been to Pakistan. So he could have and maybe bring back his drugs without being searched minutely, as he would be if the US authorities knew he had been to Pakistan on the trip.
Search Obama drug usage
Other unPC info on Obama
search IMF Resident Representative Indonesia
Mr. Neiss. … He was appointed Chief of the South Pacific Division of the former Asian Department in 1973, served as IMF Resident Representative in Indonesia between 1974 and 1976, and was appointed Assistant Director of the Asian Department in 1979.
Indonesia wanted friends in the West. So they would want to help Obama become adopted in 1966 or renew his Indonesian citizenship, passport and KTP in 1981 so that he could use them in Indonesia and to go to Pakistan.
I don’t claim to be a lawyer or sophisticated in the law. I offer legal arguments so that they can be corrected and I and others can learn from the correction of my errors.
This is draft and preliminary. This is hypothesis, speculation or opinion. This is subject to revision. Comments and corrections welcome. All other disclaimers apply. If quoted or reposted, please post this disclaimer and a link so that others may see any revisions or corrections.