Archive for the 'Turkey' Category

Traditionalism Time Consistency Continued

October 11, 2007

This is in part a continuation of the discussion of Lawrence Auster’s traditionalism discussion by focusing on liberalism and its problems. See previous articles for links to others such as Vanishing American who has additional links. This picks up from the article Liberalism is Ponzi Schemes, which went on from Ponzi Schemes to time inconsistency as defined in operations research, mathematical economics, game theory, and behavioral economics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_inconsistency

In the context of behavioral economics, time inconsistency is related to how much each different self of a decision-maker cares about herself and all of the selves that will then follow her, relative to each other.

A traditional society is one that maintains sufficient continuity of self that promises it makes at one time, e.g. to the young who pay into social security, it will deliver at another time, e.g. to pay them social security. The overlapping generations model of Maurice Allais and Paul Samuelson is a linked list of overlapping generations that make promises to the young that are satisfied by the society when they are old.

If we consider 3 generations, old, middle, and infant, the middle generation is taking care of the infants and old generations. It is teaching the infant generation to follow the rules of its society. They expect that when they become old, the infants will follow the rules. This means supporting the older generation, but also not engaging in vandalism, mugging, indifference and brutality.

Immigration by different people interferes with the operation of the overlapping generations model. The traditions that the middle generation teach to the infants are not what the immigrants bring with them. Immigration disrupts the operation of the overlapping generations model.

Third world immigration brings in immigrants who whether old, middle or infant impose external costs. These exceed the benefit that employers gain. In addition, employers lower the wages of the middle generation when they need to support the old and infant. One result is that the middle generation can’t have children and so their fertility drops.

In a simple one time period for one generation model, this gives the middle generation no second chance. So those who miss out on having children from the disruption of immigration don’t get a second chance. Some may have children but not as many as they would have had, so they have one instead of 2 or 2 instead of 3. The result is that fertility drops like a rock. This is what happened.

The overlapping generations model was published by Samuelson in 1958. Allais published it earlier in France. Fertility peaked in 1957 in the U.S. It then fell like the rock predicted above and went from about 3.75 in 1957 to below 2 in the 1970’s, i.e. below replacement.

In addition, to the drop in fertility, the substitution of immigrants, in particular third world immigrants, meant that the traditions of the society being taught to infants was disrupted and curtailed. In addition, traditions had to be changed to deal with the influx. For example, airport security has to be much higher precisely because of the influx. Car commutes take much longer because of the influx. School security has deteriorated substantially and it also imposes costs and more time.

Schools and universities have stopped teaching the rising generation to respect their elders. They have instead taught them the opposite. So the traditions of the elder and middle generation and the society pre the new cohorts of immigration that arrived with the 1965 immigration act were being substituted for by the traditions of the new arrivals.

Traditionalism might be considered in several contexts, which might deserve separate names. First in economics or occupations. If the son follows the father’s occupation, we have a form of occupation traditionalism, although in practice, it can be more a form of stasis. Second in marriage and child rearing customs. In regulating community decision making. This includes how people think, not just a meeting of whoever happens to be there.

Technology and other reasons mean that there is disruption and change in production and markets. So its not possible for those to stay the same. However, there are other principles that can remain more stable. These include not stealing, making and honoring short and long term contracts, arbitrating disputes between merchants or customers and merchants, labor agreements and management labor relations, etc.

These were at a high state of development in the 1950’s in America, Australia, Canada, Europe, and New Zeeland. They were also rising in other places. However for the named countries, some at least of these conditions peaked and fell. The peaking of fertility in 1957 in the U.S. shows that peak.

Graph of fertility in the U.S. from 1800 to 1990:

http://www.elderweb.com/home/node/2919

Harold Meyerson at Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/29/AR2006082901042.html

Labor Day is almost upon us, and like some of my fellow graybeards, I can, if I concentrate, actually remember what it was that this holiday once celebrated. Something about America being the land of broadly shared prosperity. Something about America being the first nation in human history that had a middle-class majority, where parents had every reason to think their children would fare even better than they had.

The young may be understandably incredulous, but the Great Compression, as economists call it, was the single most important social fact in our country in the decades after World War II. From 1947 through 1973, American productivity rose by a whopping 104 percent, and median family income rose by the very same 104 percent. More Americans bought homes and new cars and sent their kids to college than ever before. In ways more difficult to quantify, the mass prosperity fostered a generosity of spirit: The civil rights revolution and the Marshall Plan both emanated from an America in which most people were imbued with a sense of economic security.

That America is as dead as the dodo.

Meyerson points out the following numbers:

“From 1947 through 1973, American productivity rose by a whopping 104 percent, and median family income rose by the very same 104 percent.”

“Since 1973 productivity gains have outpaced median family income by 3 to 1.”

The following is worth repeating here.

“In ways more difficult to quantify, the mass prosperity fostered a generosity of spirit: The civil rights revolution and the Marshall Plan both emanated from an America in which most people were imbued with a sense of economic security.”

This was an America in which its middle generation had complete control to teach its traditions to its infant generation. It taught honoring contracts, non-violence, and allowing everyone to participate in a variety of ways. However, it then extended that to a wave of immigrants that in effect ended the teaching and the teaching environment of 1950’s America.

David Warsh has a column entitled, “The Generation of 1958.”

http://www.economicprincipals.com/issues/07.10.07.html

He looks at the impact of Sputnik in 1957 on America. However, this was an America that was different than now. A self-confident in control of itself America. As time-inconsistency and Auster’s attention to traditionalism over many years shows, America lost self-control because it lost the permanency of self. America can’t commit to promises because the self that would carry them out will be so different that we can’t know what it will do. America today and especially the America of 1957 is not transmitting its traditions, more than holidays, but ways of living and thinking to the next generations. Those generations are influx generations or the children of influx generations.

The following graph at Numbers USA shows some of the substitution from immigration. Its not intended to show the substitution of post 1965 immigration, but that substitution is substantial.

http://www.numbersusa.com/overpopulation/ourlostfuture.html

The article
Ronald F. Maxwell on Immigration
has some quotes and links that point up how the change in America is a risk. They particularly link to how we are taking a risk and don’t know the results. This is another way of saying that we can’t know if America will deliver on long term promises. These are not just social security but everything that goes into a society.

Liberalism and the economism propaganda of the Wall Street Journal and neocons and other beneficiaries has tried to make the claim that its the economy alone that transmits the traditions that make America. They try to claim that simply being here makes people part of the tradition of America. They claim their being here makes them act the same. They also claim that everyone acts the same as if there had been no immigration and the rising generation was the infant generation taught by the middle generation and to some extent the old generation.

We are now at a point, where the old generation has realized that the transmission of our tradition was disrupted substantially. We are to some extent the sole bearers of the tradition of America. Our transmission of it to the middle and young generations may not happen. We may be the last generation to have the traditions of 1950’s America.

We have very little time to act. There is no time to be afraid of being called bigot or racist. We have seen immigrant cohorts substituted under us in the chain of generations. We have also seen the schools engineered to teach foreign and alien traditions and not to respect or teach the one we were taught.

The schools make it sound like traditions are just holidays and food choices from a multicultural menu. Instead, its everything not included in economic models that makes them work. Tradition deals with everything that economism ignores. It deals with everything related to man as a physical, communal, and spiritual being. Without that, the core model of economics for generational analysis, the overlapping generations model stops working.

That is because society and culture stop working. That is what happen when tradition dies because its transmission belt between generations dies. That happens by substituting immigrants for births. That happens as a mathematical theorem from immigration. This is the Wright Island Model (academic references here) or the Immigration Vanishing Survival Theorem. It shows up on the graph of fertility. It takes place, in part, through lower wages. Men’s median wages are the same as in 1973. See graph p60-233.pdf around page 16.

==

Brenda Walker has a good article at Vdare.com on how FDR would have taught our traditions if alive today and fighting the war on Islam instead of Islam’s traditions as Bush does by celebrating Ramadan.

http://www.vdare.com/walker/071010_ramadan.htm

Watching even the compromised Ken Burns’ WWII documentary was a moving reminder of the unified America that has been squandered by open borders and diversity immigration.

Franklin Roosevelt had the advantage of a national community that was already joined by culture, values and language. He could rally the American people with stirring words calling for sacrifice to win the war, and the positive response was predictable.

George Bush, America’s only MBA President, merely recommended that we continue to shop after being attacked. The opportunity to educate the people about the danger of fundamentalist Islam, let alone unassimilable immigration in general, has been largely lost.

==Vanishing American

http://vanishingamerican.blogspot.com/2007/10/redeem-time-redeem-dream.html

VA reviews some material from Russell Kirk and adds some insights to the discussion on traditionalism Auster has sparked recently.

Turkey: Christian Armenian Genocide Sources

December 3, 2006

=== Jan Lahmeyer Netherlands===

Netherlands based estimate: Turkey Population year by year. Note data is massaged for earlier years. Approximately 13 million 1913. (2104,8 thousands plus 10982,1.)

New functioning links

http://www.populstat.info/Asia/turkeyg.htm 

http://www.populstat.info/Asia/turkeyc.htm 

http://www.populstat.info/Asia/turkeyt.htm 

http://www.populstat.info/Asia/turkeyop.htm 

(Download these to your hard drive today since they used

to be posted at links below which were taken down. You can’t know if these links will be working later.)

Old non-functioning Links

http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/turkeyc.htm

http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/turkeyop.htm

1910: Asia Minor 10.9 million

1910 Armenia and Kurdistan 2.5 million (2540,7 thousands). Note for Kurdistan he has a blank, so the 2.5 million may not include any for Kurdistan. It appears counting the non-Kurdistan subdivisions he has for this category one gets close to 2.5 million. So it appears Kurdistan is not part of this 2.5 million figure.
Sometimes counted households sometimes people. Author claims a household could have 10 people.

==US Consul Horton

Ottoman Statistics Anatolia pre-1915

http://www.agiasofia.com/horton/table.jpg

9.15 million total

5.596 million Muslim

You can select all, copy, and paste into MS Word or even a text file to get a more readable version.

http://www.agiasofia.com/horton/horton.html

http://www.agiasofia.com/

http://www.agiasofia.com/genocide/genocide.html

==Rummel

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP5.HTM

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB5.1B.GIF

Anatolia Muslims 15 million 1914 from Ministry of Interior. The Minister of the Interior said in 1914 that Turkey was for the Turks only. This meant for the Muslims only.

Anatolia Greeks 1.6 to 1.8 million, several sources cited. The Ministry of the Interior was already behind genocide of the Christians since the 1890’s. Some of the sources indicate deliberate underestimating of Christians and overestimating of Muslims. That had been going on for over 50 years before 1914 according to at least one source.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB5.1A.GIF

==Humprhys

http://humphrysfamilytree.com/Maltass/turkey.history.html#links

== Searches

Turkey population Anatolia 1910

Also use 1900, 1914, 1915,1923, 1927, etc.
==

British reaction

History Ottoman Empire: http://www.agiasofia.com/english.php

Christians and Jews in Turkey in 20th Century

November 28, 2006

New York Times articles reported the Turkish genocide on November 12 1914 and January 11, and January 13, 1915. Pdf of NY Times articles.

From January 13, 1915 New York Times:

“Talaat Bey, the Minister of the Interior, has stated to the Councillor of the Greek Patriarchate that in Turkey henceforth there will be room only for Turks. While he was profuse in assurance to the Greek Minister regarding the cessation of anti- Greek persecutions, no real amelioration of the situation is perceptible.”

Now the Turkish government is “profuse in its assurances” to the EU, the Pope, and to those stout defenders of Americans and Christians, C. Rice and George Bush that they have stopped anti-Christian persecutions. This is because there are so few Christians to persecute, that it hardly counts compared to the numbers before?

New York Times coverage of September 11, 2001.

9-11 Report and articles

9-11 5 years later

NY Times 1914, 1915 repeat of above link

bin Laden’s 1996 Fatwa and Declaration of War on America.

“The latest and the greatest of these aggressions, incurred by the Muslims since the death of the Prophet (ALLAH’S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM) is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places -the foundation of the house of Islam, the place of the revelation, the source of the message and the place of the noble Ka’ba, the Qiblah of all Muslims- by the armies of the American Crusaders and their allies.”

Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.

Is this now true of France, Denmark, London, Dearborn, Washington, etc?

“…no real amelioration of the situation is perceptible.”

That is care of Bush, Blair, Rice, 9-11 Commission of Hamilton Kean, the Iraq Study Group of Baker Hamilton, Democrats, Republicans, MSM, profs, etc.

“…no real amelioration of the situation is perceptible.”

For Christians in Turkey from 1914 to the 2006 Pope Visit.

For the West after 9-11.

Population of Anatolia 1915 before Genocide Ottoman Official records

Muslims were 5.6 million, total population was 9.1 million. So 3.5 million were non-Muslim. So the genocides or suppression of Christians, Jews and others by the Muslims was really about getting rid of about 40 percent of the population.

Genocide is about getting rid of the people, if we can coin a Yogi Berraism. The Muslims wanted to get rid of 40 percent of the population. This was to take the land, houses, businesses, and money of the victims.

It was a delayed completion of the conquests in previous centuries.

According to the following source, the Muslims killed 3.5 to 4.3 million Christians between 1900 and 1923 in Turkey.

Statistics Of Turkey’s Democide Estimates, Calculations, And Sources” By R.J. Rummel.
Demographics of Turkey

Christian Genocide Minor Asia webpage

Reference on 1942 Tax Law

Unpleasant Genocide Arithmetic

If the population is stable and one group is given an advantage so that its net growth rate is higher than a second group, then the second group will go extinct.

Proof:

In equilibrium the average growth rate is zero. So if one group is above the other in growth rate, it must be above zero and the second group must be below zero. So the second group goes extinct.

Islam is about giving its members advantage over others. So over time Islam is genocide of non-Muslims. Islam was developed in 622 AD when times were hard. This was the Dark Ages. Some think a volcano was responsible for it, but it was a harsh time of scarcity. Islam was designed to give its members a leg up in that time of scarcity over non-Muslims. So Islam is a religion of genocide in population biology terms.

search Christians Turkey 1914

ISHR Christians in Turkey

Holy Land Foundation shut down after 9-11.

Comments at Jihadwatch.org

..

Second article quotations below. (first article is also interesting on confiscations of non Muslim foundations in Turkey. They still haven’t returned them as required by the EU.)

“September 5, 2005

WORLDWIDE TAX OVERVIEW
by Cathy Phillips, editor of Tax Notes International ”

“On the morning of November 12, 1942, the citizens of Turkey woke up to the most draconian wealth tax ever envisaged. While the tax in theory applied to the entire predominantly Muslim nation, in practice much of its burden rested with the minority Christian and Jewish communities who primarily resided in Istanbul, formerly known as Constantinople. Neither the rate of taxation nor the taxable base and its derivation were made public.”

“Tax assessments were arrived at in secret, and individuals were directed to settle their government assessed liabilities within two weeks, without any appeal provisions in place. The penalty for Christians and Jews who failed to do so within a month was deportation to forced labor camps in eastern Turkey in addition to having their property confiscated. The tax was initially also extended to Christian and Jewish schools, as well as to churches and synagogues, but not to Muslim institutions, because they were owned or funded by the government.”

Formatting of tables is better in the original.

” Table 1: Statutory Tax Rates

Provision Applied to Applied to
Rate on wartime profit Muslim Turks Non-Muslims
12.5 percent 50.0 percent
Additional tax zero Up to 50 percent of personal wealth

Source: Faik Okte, The Tragedy of the Turkish Capital Tax.”

“In an otherwise officially secular state, taxpayers were classified as Muslim and non-Muslim, denoted with the letters M and G, respectively./2/ The latter included Jews and Christians, including Armenians and Greeks. Assyrian Orthodox Christians also fell in that class. An additional class of taxpayers were the Donme, denoted by D. The Donme were Jews whose ancestors had converted to Islam in the 17th century./3/ Like the Jews and Christians, the Donme were taxed at rates higher than those that applied to Muslims.”

“able 3: Tax Assessments of Minority Institutions

Christian and Jewish Institutions/*/ Number Assessment (TRL)
Schools 88 227,550
Churches and Synagogues 27 119,200
Hospitals 7 86,750

/*/ Zero assessment for Muslim institutions, which numbered in the thousands.

Source: Faik Okte, The Tragedy of the Turkish Capital Tax.”

“Table 4: Effective Tax Rates by Religious and Ethnic Affiliations

Merchants by Affiliation Tax Rates (percent)
Muslim 4.94
Greek Orthodox 156.00
Jewish 179.00
Christian Armenian 232.00

Source: C.L. Sulzberger, “Turkish Tax Kills Foreign Business,”
The New York Times, Sept. 11, 1943.”

Posted by: Old Atlantic [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 28, 2006 08:07 AM

Reference on above 1942 Tax Law


Population of Anatolia 1915 before Genocide Ottoman Official records

Muslims were 5.6 million, total population was 9.1 million. So 3.5 million were non-Muslim. So the genocides or suppression of Christians, Jews and others by the Muslims was really about getting rid of them.

It was a delayed completion of the conquests in previous centuries.
Posted by: Old Atlantic [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 28, 2006 08:36 AM..

New York Times coverage of September 11, 2001.

9-11 Report and articles

9-11 5 years later

NY Times 1914, 1915 repeat of above link

Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.

bin Laden’s Fatwa compared to Talaat Bey in 1914 saying Turkey for Turks only.


bin Laden’s 1996 Fatwa and Delcaration of War against America.

“The latest and the greatest of these aggressions, incurred by the Muslims since the death of the Prophet (ALLAH’S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM) is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places -the foundation of the house of Islam, the place of the revelation, the source of the message and the place of the noble Ka’ba, the Qiblah of all Muslims- by the armies of the American Crusaders and their allies.”

Repeat of

From January 13, 1915 New York Times:

“Talaat Bey, the Minister of the Interior, has stated to the Councillor of the Greek Patriarchate that in Turkey henceforth there will be room only for Turks. While he was profuse in assurance to the Greek Minister regarding the cessation of anti-Greek persecutions, no real amelioration of the situation is perceptible.”

Is this now true of France, Denmark, London, Dearborn, Washington, etc?

“…no real amelioration of the situation is perceptible.”

That is care of Bush, Blair, Rice, 9-11 Commission of Hamilton Kean, the Iraq Study Group of Baker Hamilton, Democrats, Republicans, MSM, profs, etc.

Posted by: Old Atlantic [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 28, 2006 10:22 AM

..

With respect to my colleague Limes in this case, sometimes you can extrapolate. “Mathematical models might be useful five or ten years out, but don’t extrapolate decades into the future. The unsustainable never is.”


98 percent of Turkey is Muslim today


Ottoman Empire 40 percent Christian 1915

So the Christian population went from 40 percent in 1915 to less than 2 percent today.

So with respect to my colleague, what turned out to be unsustainable in Turkey was Christian life.

“On December 21, 1995, Bethlehem became one of the areas under the full control of the Palestinian Authority. It is capital of the Bethlehem district. The current population of the town is about 40,000. The Christian population is no longer the majority, but a special statute requires that the mayor and a majority of the municipal council must nevertheless be Christian.”

“Bethlehem’s former mayor, Hanna Nasser, says an estimated 2,000 Christians in Bethlehem have emigrated during the period of 2000 – 2003. Fifty years ago, Bethlehem was overwhelmingly Christian. Today, it has a Muslim majority.”


Bethlehem wiki
There is a need to understand the genocides and forced deportations against Christians and Jews in the entire Middle East in the 20th and 21s centuries.

==

http://civoc.com/newsline/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=9

Posted by: Arnie [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 28, 2006 10:44 AM The above is from CNN and the gentle lady from Lebanon, a Chrisian, tells how Hezbollah is taking over. They have large families, drive out the Christians to take their lands for their families and then vote themselves in power. Terrorists are in the government of Lebanon, which was once Christian.

This is what happens. It is happening in America, England, Denmark, France, Germany , Norway, Russia, Spain, Sweden, etc.

This is happening to us now. We must stop immigration. Critics say, it hasn’t happened to us already. Then when it does, if they were here, they would say its too late to do anything. This is what they say about immigration, and nukes in North Korea, Pakistan and Iran. They will let Saudi Arabia and UAE get nukes. They let Russia and China get nukes and the left even gave them the secrets.

They invented Mutual Assured Destruction after the fact to make it sound logical. This was to cover up betrayal. The Ph.D.’s at RAND who made up MAD were covering up the espionage by Russia still going on.

The people justifying nukes for Pakistan, Iran and North Korea today are the same leftists anti-Westerners who covered up communist subversion in the 1940’s and 1950’s and let Russia get the bomb. They said it was ok, it was MAD. Russia will be 50 percent Muslim in 50 years or less.

When they use those nukes on us, will it have made sense to have let Russia get nukes in the 1940’s? The professors lied and betrayed us in the 1940’s just as they do today. Harvard, Princeton, University of Chicago, Berkeley, Stanford, Yale, etc. were covering up espionage then and are betraying us now.

The Christians in Turkey went from 40 percent in 1915 to 2 percent or less in 2006. This is what happens when we listen to the liars and West haters on the Left. We have to fight, not let our politicians, profs and MSM betray us. They can’t think beyond today’s headline. We must. We must act. We must tell them to stop immigration totally. We must denuke NoKo and Pakistan and stop it in Iran and Saudi Arabia. These are enemy homelands funding invasion of us by immigration.

This is real. This is what history is. Civilizations fall. Ethnic groups go extinct. You either face up to reality and do something about it or you disappear from the planet. That is what the Left has wanted since Marx.

We need to stop immigration, give our young adults economic security from no immigration and let them get married, have big families and stay married. That comes from job security. Job security comes from no immigration.

Immigration was started in Europe in the 1950’s. In the US in 1965. In both cases, it killed job security for the young. In both cases it brought the population rate below replacement We need to support young adults with job security and end every type of immigration. This includes H1B, family reunification, asylum, etc.

We need to stop the genocide of Christians in Lebanon and the Middle East and support them. We need to say that this genocide of Christians is what Islam is about from the beginning and is now. Islam was an ideology developed in 622 AD during the Dark Ages to justify taking Christian lands and subjugating them so that their population would decline over time.

Now Islam is on the march again, during a time of demographic stress created by their own birth rates. Their birth rates make their lands unlivable so they have to invade ours. We do nothing but allow it. The Left and the betrayers like McCain, Kennedy, Bush, etc. want this to happen to us. They lied during the 1965 Immigration Act and said it wouldn’t change anything. They lied then and lie now. They want our demographic democide. They work for it and lie to our faces.

Democide happened in Turkey. The Christians went from 40 percent in 1915 to under 2 percent in 2006. This is happening now in the US and Europe. Its reality. We must stop immigration now. This includes family reunification, lottery, waiting in line, etc.

Robert Spencer Jihad Watch: Pope Rage in Istanbul Comments

Limes and Malinois are right, if we respond. If we wait for the invisible hand to stop immigration completely, not just a token amount, then it will happen.

We have to be politically active. We have to persuade. We have to write to Congressman and Senators. It doesn’t happen by itself.

Once we project our exctinction, and anticipate it will happen if we don’t change, then we still have to act based on that expectation. If no change means we go extinct, and we don’t actually change it, then we do go extinct.

Immigration causes extinction of all the genes in a country, and on a rolling basis every annual cohort of immigrants.

See
Unpleasant Immigration Arithmetic


and more at this search on “Unpleasant Immigration Arithmetic”

We also have to denuke Pakistan and Iran, and support the Christians in Lebanon, Africa, etc.

Posted by: Old Atlantic [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 28, 2006 11:53 AM

“Unpleasant Immigration Arithmetic” is a mathematical theorem. If the assumption of sustained immigration is true, the consequence that genes go extinct follows. This applies to everyone here, and everyone who comes in any given year.

Each cohort of everyone here, including those newly arrived, has its genetic survival ratio asymptote to zero if immigration continues.

To avoid the consequences of the mathematical theorem, the assumption has to be completely avoided. Reducing immigration doesn’t avoid the assumption. Immigration has to be zero. Close doesn’t work. Its a theorem.

Limes and Malinois have said if we change things, the consequences won’t happen that will happen if we don’t change them. But we have to actually change immigration to zero, not just reduce it a lot.

Posted by: Old Atlantic [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 28, 2006 12:48 PM

 

 


This article represents opinion, hypotheses, speculation, and perhaps our last chance. All other disclaimers apply.

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